Seeking information on trench knife

[Eric Gregory]

I received this knife as a gift 50 years ago and it looked old then, so I have assumed it to be authentic.  Just wondering if forum members can confirm and provide me any specifics. I am also interested in current value.  

[tullybrone]

From the ever helpful simple  Google search - 

 

https://www.brassknucklescompany.com/knuckle-knives/1918-wwi-trench-knife-1

 

The M1918 Mark I Trench Knife arrived too late in the war to have any effectiveness - in fact there is some debate as to whether any American made Mark I's even saw combat in the first war. The French version made by Au Lion definitely did see action in WWI. WW2 was different. The US entered the war with only one issued knife, a parachutist's jump knife. US Armed Forces seemed to keep forgetting that knives are necessary in war. The Mark I was issued to paratroopers and Army Rangers in WW2 as well as many other soldiers. The McNary pattern was widely used in WWII and up to the Vietnam War.

 

Col. Jeff Cooper remarked recently in a magazine article with regard to fighting knives that this would be his choice. Some soldiers dislike it because it is heavy enough to hammer nails with but it leaves little to the imagination as to the sort of savage mayhem that it could bring to an enemy.

 

Original Manufacturers

 

The original manufacturers of this knife were Au Lionin France and Landers, Frary and Clark (L,C&F) in America. They were one of the largest manufacturers of kitchen and camping goods from about 1880 to 1965 when they went out of business. It was also manufactured by US firms H.D.S., or O.C.L

 

When it became clear that many more combat knives were needed, it was decided to design a more modern knife that didn't use brass or bronze since this metal was expensive and in short supply.

 

Therefore, the US Mark 3 combat knife was designed and issued and the era of Combat Knuckle Knives faded out. 

 

Additional Historical Facts regarding this knife

 

When the US entered WWI, the military knew it needed to issue a fighting knife, and the first model issued was the US Model 1917 Knuckle Duster Trench Knife. It really wasn't a knife as much as a dagger since the blade was a 9 3/4" triangular "ice pick" type dagger. The handle was walnut, and the guard was made of steel, formed into a knobbed knuckle bow. The USModel 1917 Knuckle Duster Trench Knife was not popular with the troops because it couldn't be used like a normal knife to cut open rations, cut rope, etc. and it was large and bulky and did not feel comfortable and solid in a soldiers hand. It simply was not versatile enough to be an effective combat knife 

 

In 1918, Major Eugene McNary of the AEF designed and patented a new knife named the US Mark One. Many people call this knife the "1918", since the 1918 date is cast into the handle, along with the makers initials. This was an actual knife, with a 6 3/4" double edged dagger blade, and a handle made of cast brass with knuckles. The butt of the handle had a conical nut that both held the blade in the handle, and acted as a "skull crusher". The knuckles were formed into individual finger stalls, which were intended to prevent the user from dropping the knife if he was wounded or knocked unconscious. The knuckles had small spikes on each bow, both to improve the damage done to an opponent, and to prevent the opponent from grabbing the knife hand. 

 

The Unique Scabbard

 

The Mark I's scabbard was a two piece iron scabbard, with two prongs riveted on the back, which were used to attach the scabbard to the cartridge belt. In order to attach the scabbard to the cartridge belt, the upper prong is bent upward. The prongs were the weak point of the scabbard, since if the prong was bent down to attach the scabbard to a pistol belt, or if the scabbard was given a jerk, the prongs would break off. For this reason, most surviving scabbards are missing one or both prongs. The scabbard was copper plated then chemically blackened to prevent rust. The scabbard is much rarer than the knife.

 

Since it took time for the American makers of the Mark One to tool up for production, Major McNary contracted with the French company of Au Lion to make a version of the Mark One in France. This Au Lion version has a handle made of bronze, not the brass used on the American version. The knuckles have a more rounded shape with spikes, and the handle often has two grooves running the length of the handle on the upper side to provide a better grip. The French version is noticeably poorer quality than the American made version, and is slightly smaller. The blade was the same blade used on a French issue trench knife, and is marked with a reclining lion, and the name Au Lion.

 

It's uncertain if the American version saw action, since by the time shipments arrived in Europe, the war ended. The French version definitely was used in combat. In the 1920's, the US1917/18 spike blade knives were sold off as surplus, and many of the Mark One models were also sold.

 

When WWII started, the Mark One was the only combat knife available, and it was heavily issued to early paratroopers and Rangers. It was a common practice in WWII to modify the Mark One by cutting one or both sides of the round guard off so the knife would lie flatter against the side. Individuals also would cut the knuckles off, leaving finger grooves. Occasionally, the handle was thrown away, and the blade was fitted with a new handle. 

 

 

Edited 4 July , 2022 by tullybrone

[Eric Gregory]

Thank you sir, i did a simple google search myself.  What Google cannot provide is any opinion regarding this Specific knife’s authenticity, condition and approximate value.  Hoping more knowledgeable members than I might provide opinions. 

[militariaone]

Greetings Eric,

Been awhile, since I have last visited the forum. Long story short, the knife you have shared images of is a whole/entire reproduction. This example originate somewhere on the European continent (I assume France, but have no conclusive proof other than the numbers of these, which appear to proliferate from there). The poor sharpness of Au Lion trademark is the easiest clue as is the leather on the washer on the blade, which never existed on originals. There are other "tells" on the handle and skull crusher's shape, but this is a one-look fake for most collectors of these knives.

Best Regards,

V/r Lance

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ww1-allies-great-britain-france-usa-etc-1914-1918/u-s-m1918-mk-i-trench-knife-414102/

 

 

 

[Steve1871]

TullyBrone

Thanks for all that info, I collect long arms and Bayonets for them, and leather, since reading your post, I am considering adding the U.S. fighting/knuckle knives to my collection 😊

[Eric Gregory]

Thank you Mr Vance, 
That is disapointing, but good to know - Would have been embarrassing to try and sell this only to find I had a fake. I had assumed it to be original because of its age (as I said I have had it for nearly 50 years).  People must have started reproducing them mid- century and maybe aging them somehow?  Anyway, thanks for your response, guess I’ll just hang onto it.  

 

 

[trajan]

Yes, the fakers were about early for these things... Basically, anything odd, unusual, and/or rare was faked from an early date - and this one could even have been done in the inter-war period.

[Chasemuseum]

I started collecting in the early 70s around when Eric says he purchased this knife.

 

I do remember that they were being advertised at the time in the  USA shooting / gun magazine. From the ads at the time it was hinted that they were newly made and not original but the actual ads were deliberately ambiguous. There were similar ads for German WW2 "Nazi" daggers. These were mostly parts daggers made from a combination of bulk left over parts, with few newly made parts assembled to make "genuine WW2 daggers". Some of those abominations, involved mismatched parts that had never been used in the combinations that were put together, Frankenstein daggers if you like.

 

Anyway I only ever saw a couple of the USA knuckle duster daggers as these were a "prohibited weapon" in my state of NSW although thew were legal in some other Australian states. So it was never possible to handle enough examples to learn the differences between the genuine and replica examples, hence I was not prepared to comment on whether Eric's was an original WW1 example or not.

 

My point is that I believe that copies were being widely marketed in the USA in the 1970s, with these spreading internationally subject to their being legal in the secondary countries at that time. They were not being made as fakes to deceive collectors, rather they were marketed as a "cool" agro looking knife.

 

Back in the 70s collecting WW1 was a minor activity, and I used to cop a lot of flak from "serious collectors" for collecting the junk that was readily available in Army Disposal stores. Even Boer War collectors were criticized for collecting "modern" materiel.

 

Cheers

Ross

 

[trajan]

That's good to know that Ross. I did wonder if it this knuckle-duster blade might have been made between the wars (as with some 'trench art') as a 'war souvenir' product, but what you say makes sense. A 'marriage' of real and newly-manufactured parts.

It was also in that period that some enterprising ba**ard acid-etched a number of real 3R WW2 bayonets with 'patriotic' slogans.

I had collected some WW1 German material in the 60's along with some WW2 stuff, but my ma threw it all away one day worried about my 'Germanic' leanings....!!! 

Julian