1917 Verners Pattern VII compass - cleaning and repair?

[MrEd]

Hello all,

I have a MK VII Verners compass dated 1917, it still works but I want to give a bit of a clean. I don’t want to remove the patina or re-blacken it but I would like to remove the ver-de-gris and free up a couple of seized bits.

I wonder if anyone can:

- advise on how to remove the ver-de-gris and grime without stripping off more of the black etc.

- where can I get a new red rubber friction disc for the underneath? Or what were they made of so I can make one?

I don’t necessarily want to open it, but I would like to give the pivot a clean up - I am aware of the radium risk (and have a couple of detectors)  - but does anyone have any pointers for how to do that? Specifically how to open the compass without damaging it!

or am I best leaving it alone internally? It’s a display piece hence wanting to smarten up the outside!

Also, if anyone knows a source of seals for a ww2 oil filled prismatic compass that would be great - as mine is letting air in again (I had it de-radium’d pribably ten years ago now so it’s safe to work on)

 

thanks

ed

 

[JMB1943]

Mr Ed,

For the verdegris on the milled, grooved brass I would use rubbing alcohol (70% isopropyl alcohol in water) or pure isopropyl alcohol with a toothpick or a Q-tip.

For general grime, a Q-tip only with rubbing alcohol or pure isopropyl alcohol.

Tread carefully with the black paint, but I think that it should be resistant to the rubbing alcohol.

Regards,

JMB

[MrEd]

1 minute ago, JMB1943 said:

Mr Ed,

For the verdegris on the milled, grooved brass I would use rubbing alcohol (70% isopropyl alcohol in water) or pure isopropyl alcohol with a toothpick or a Q-tip.

For general grime, a Q-tip only with rubbing alcohol or pure isopropyl alcohol.

Tread carefully with the black paint, but I think that it should be resistant to the rubbing alcohol.

Regards,

JMB

Thanks JMB, agreed I don’t want to remove any more of the black (or restore the black) as I quite like the way it’s worn away from handling.

 

will get some iso and give it a go, thank you. Will post up my results. 
 

i have an ultrasonic cleaner aswell - works amazing on small parts so may try some of the bits in that to

 

Ed

[17107BM]

Hello MrEd. 

I have no advice on cleaning, but would like to see the results of your work.

Just a cracking item before the clean.

Cheers.

[MrEd]

12 minutes ago, 17107BM said:

Hello MrEd. 

I have no advice on cleaning, but would like to see the results of your work.

Just a cracking item before the clean.

Cheers.

Yes, I just want to sympathetically clean it - not restore it, I like the wear from 100 years of use 

Edited 28 June , 2022 by MrEd

[MrEd]

In case anyone is interested I spent an enjoyable afternoon cleaning this compass.

i dismantled everything apart from the ass and mother of pearl disc - I left that sealed for now.

I did find one other bit that is open that’s radium - I have painted clear nail varnish over this to seal it to prevent it coming off. I will create a small clean space and take the dial glass off (wearing gloves and face mask) and do the same to the mother of pearl disc with the radium arrow.

I mainly mechanically cleaned the verdigris off with a small glass fibre pencil thing from halfords and a small bamboo stirring stick to get the grime out of the groves etc. Both worked really well as didn’t scratch the metal, I just went slow and gentle. 
 

All the small parts and screws had a 10min bath in vinegar and that was enough to dissolve all the verdigris but not alter the colour of the brass.

It cleaned up really well, everything now works and is free, the dial glass rotates,  the prism mechanism works but unfortunately I found it is ever so slightly slightly chipped.

i didn’t polish it, I just gave it a clean with a lens cleaning micro fibre cloth thing.

 I hope you like. Some before and after photos.

Before.

[MrEd]

Dismantled and After photos

 

 

and the exposed bit of radium - I checked this with a scintillation meter (gamma spectroscopy) and it is definitely radium, not terribly radioactive in the scheme of things tbh but not something I would want falling off and ending up in the dog or children!

 

and covered in clear lacquer to seal it and glue it down.

 

Did a contamination wipe test after and no contamination of the work surface. I wiped it down anyway.

A lovely item that I got at an absolute steal price and has cleaned up nicely, now to find a leather case for it!

ed

 

p.s I know I said I wouldn’t but I am tempted to re-blacken the areas where the verdigris has been removed - but I am not sure….

Edited 29 June , 2022 by MrEd

[Interested]

Conservation or restoration, that is the question.  Whether t'is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of the purists... etc.

[MrEd]

23 minutes ago, Interested said:

Conservation or restoration, that is the question.  Whether t'is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of the purists... etc.

Conservation I think, it’s now (almost) corrosion free. I don’t want to remove the patina and history from it, it’s obviously worn from handling tbh 

[Chasemuseum]

There is also the issue of how it looked physically in the field back in 1917/1918. Much of the paint that is worn away was probably worn off in rough regular handling in the first two years of its 105 years of age. 

 

When I consider restoration, one of the questions I am always putting forward is what did it look like at a particular point in time ? In general I will aim to limit restoration to the goal of a target time in the items life. A soldier outside the trenches would normally be admonished for having a uniform with buttons missing, torn seams and moth holes. If a repair can be made in an unobtrusive manner I will do this. If a tunic is a mass of moth holes, split seams and tears - I will manage it as a reference object and limit any restoration to preventing further deterioration.

 

The fashion at the moment, in the "professional museum brethren" is to limit restoration to what is clearly identifiable and fully reversible in the future. Frankly to me this is foolish but I understand the reaction against practices of only a few years ago where objects were frankly destroyed by over enthusiastic restorers. 

Some examples to make you cry

1980s Australian War Memorial. In preparation for the new VC gallery, they wanted a display of Lithgow built SMLE rifles with hook quillion bayonets to go in the Gallipoli case. Several lovely examples of Lithgow HQ were "restored" including polishing off the blueing to present as bright steel bayonets. British made bayonets were bright blades, with paint for war service, Lithgow were always chemical blueing from the factory. Also very few if any Lithgow bayonets/rifles saw service at Gallipoli, the AIF were mostly using British made rifles that had been delivered to Australia prior to the war.

Mid 90s RAAF Museum Point Cook, had a WW2 German Me 163 Komet, on loan from AWM. This was an historically important example as the only known example that had been indoors since the war and was still in the original WW2 paint. A friend at AWM got quite a surprise when a curator from a German museum rang him up and abused him. He had travelled to Victoria to research the aircraft and on arrival had found that the RAAF had done a "Full restoration" stripping off all the original paint back to bare metal and repainting the aircraft in modern aviation paint using the colour scheme from the Airfix model kit.   

Early 1990s AWM again. The restorers cleaned up their Me 262. Again it had been indoors since the war. Rather than involve professional aircraft mechanics, their restorers did all the work in-house. I listened to a restorer discus this on the radio. She detailed how when they dismantled the engines, all of the seals in the engine were just like being brand new. She was unaware that the engines of the 262 had a very short life, so they probably were brand new and had probably never been fired up after being fitted to the aircraft. Engines that could have been maintained as airworthy if serviced by an aircraft engine fitter, were now unsafe to ever fire up once they had been dismantled by unqualified personnel.

 

[MrEd]

6 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

There is also the issue of how it looked physically in the field back in 1917/1918. Much of the paint that is worn away was probably worn off in rough regular handling in the first two years of its 105 years of age. 

 

When I consider restoration, one of the questions I am always putting forward is what did it look like at a particular point in time ? In general I will aim to limit restoration to the goal of a target time in the items life. A soldier outside the trenches would normally be admonished for having a uniform with buttons missing, torn seams and moth holes. If a repair can be made in an unobtrusive manner I will do this. If a tunic is a mass of moth holes, split seams and tears - I will manage it as a reference object and limit any restoration to preventing further deterioration.

 

The fashion at the moment, in the "professional museum brethren" is to limit restoration to what is clearly identifiable and fully reversible in the future. Frankly to me this is foolish but I understand the reaction against practices of only a few years ago where objects were frankly destroyed by over enthusiastic restorers. 

Some examples to make you cry

1980s Australian War Memorial. In preparation for the new VC gallery, they wanted a display of Lithgow built SMLE rifles with hook quillion bayonets to go in the Gallipoli case. Several lovely examples of Lithgow HQ were "restored" including polishing off the blueing to present as bright steel bayonets. British made bayonets were bright blades, with paint for war service, Lithgow were always chemical blueing from the factory. Also very few if any Lithgow bayonets/rifles saw service at Gallipoli, the AIF were mostly using British made rifles that had been delivered to Australia prior to the war.

Mid 90s RAAF Museum Point Cook, had a WW2 German Me 163 Komet, on loan from AWM. This was an historically important example as the only known example that had been indoors since the war and was still in the original WW2 paint. A friend at AWM got quite a surprise when a curator from a German museum rang him up and abused him. He had travelled to Victoria to research the aircraft and on arrival had found that the RAAF had done a "Full restoration" stripping off all the original paint back to bare metal and repainting the aircraft in modern aviation paint using the colour scheme from the Airfix model kit.   

Early 1990s AWM again. The restorers cleaned up their Me 262. Again it had been indoors since the war. Rather than involve professional aircraft mechanics, their restorers did all the work in-house. I listened to a restorer discus this on the radio. She detailed how when they dismantled the engines, all of the seals in the engine were just like being brand new. She was unaware that the engines of the 262 had a very short life, so they probably were brand new and had probably never been fired up after being fitted to the aircraft. Engines that could have been maintained as airworthy if serviced by an aircraft engine fitter, were now unsafe to ever fire up once they had been dismantled by unqualified personnel.

 

Absolutely agree. Over restoration is awful. I too have seen similar things, or things where you just think ‘what on earth were you thinking’ 

In the case of this compass, I am happy, it’s fully working and fully intact - I could re-black it chemically quite easily (I have done this quite a few times with brass - it’s quite easy!) but then the compass would look too ‘new’ (in my opinion) so I am going to leave it with its traces of black, but now corrosion free - so kept carefully there is no reason why it can’t last another 105 years!