Andrew MENZIES

[Sandy]

I'm trying to identify my Andrew Menzies death date.          Vague family records say died in France, 1919, but I can't confirm my Andrew Menzies on any memorial via CWG (he may be also known only unto God).   On his daughter's birth certificate 1916 his profession is given as 'Chauffeur (Private 11th Battalion Royal Scots) but I haven't been able to find a Military record.  I did find and am not sure where 1581 Driver Menzies A Pleurisy Tripoli 1.2.1919.  I'm not sure how to go about proving this is my Andrew and that he may have died of sickness or wounds.

Andrew was born 1880 Glasgow, Scotland.  Father, Andrew Menzies; mother Mary Miller McLACHLAN; Spouse Mary Ann Harrow Thomson

I would appreciate any help either in finding a military record or a confirmed death date

TIA

[Ivor Anderson]

52 minutes ago, Sandy said:

I can't confirm my Andrew Menzies on any memorial via CWG (he may be also known only unto God). 

If he died in WW1 he should be listed on the CWGC site, even if he has no known grave. Only 2 Andrew Menzies deaths I see listed are:

What date in 1916 was his daughter's birth?

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Sandy]

Thankyou.  Not knowing much about English military would either of those be associated with Royal Scots?

[Ivor Anderson]

34 minutes ago, Sandy said:

would either of those be associated with Royal Scots?

Not at first glance. This guy sure got around (Ancestry):  19307 was 1st Garrison Bn. RS (medal roll)

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[BarbaraG]

Pension Records give an address in Glasgow...

[George Rayner]

Family trees on Ancestry are convinced it's 1409-I'm not sure. Pension card says mother Jeanie R though and address 11 Annfield Street

George

[Ivor Anderson]

Was his daughter Lilly born 2 Nov 1916? Had he a son Victor 10 Feb 1915? If so, what occ. was stated on Victor's BC?

[George Rayner]

Ivor Ancestry tree has

Birth of daughter Lilly mcconvay Menzies(1916–2003)

2 Nov 1916 • Glasgow

for the daughter

George

Wonder where he is in 1901 & 1911 Census returns

George

[Ivor Anderson]

If dau. b. 2 Nov 1916, he couldn't be 1409 who died 16 Nov 1915. Also very unlikely to be 20959 who died 27 Jan 1916.

Perhaps he did not serve overseas or died post war?

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[George Rayner]

Can you find Mary Ann Menzies? nee Thomson

George

[Ivor Anderson]

26 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Can you find Mary Ann Menzies? nee Thomson

They apparently married 24 Jan 1908 in Glasgow and she died 27 Nov 1958 in Glasgow. The trees seem to agree, but Scottish records are very limited in Ancestry, e.g. no 1911 census. Lilly was born 2 Nov 1916, and a son Victor 10 Feb 1915. Wonder what occ. detail was on Victor's BC? Scottish records incur lookup fees!

We need more info from the OP.

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

This Andrew Menzies (12165) started with the 11th Bn. Royal Scots (Ancestry):

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Mark1959]

Think you have something there. Courtesy fold3

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Mark1959

[Mark1959]

One of Ancestry trees has Victor born at Raglan St address. He does seem to have been alive until after 1919. Family lore as he may have just deserted his family. TBC

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Mark1959

[Sandy]

Wow you have all been busy while I do dinner and nighttime stuff here in New Zealand.  Victor's birth certificate has Andrew's profession as Chauffeur (Private 11th (service) Batt. Royal Scots.  Victor was born 51 Raglan Street Glasgow. 10 Feb 1915.  I'll check all the posts and see if I have missed any of your questions.

 

[Sandy]

Mark may well be right about Andrew deserting the family, I hadn't thought of that, as I had a one track mind of him dying in France.   I have checked what limited family history I have and it is a sad story. Family story - Mary Ann took the eldest child also Andrew born in 1908 and went to USA 1919-1920.  She left four children in the care of a Bella McDonald and her brother at Ardendrain, Kiltarlity (down the bottom of the Glen near Beuly)  The four children were Catherine May, Helen, Victor and Lily. Andrew stayed in America but Mary Ann returned to Scotland and died in 1958.   There are passenger lists that show Andrew but not his mother, perhaps another mystery!

Form  S.B. 36 that Mark has posted I think definitely look like my Andrew especially with the address of 51 Raglan St.  What dates were they issued/completed ?  Would anyone else agree that in the second one he gives his marital status as W. ?    

Once again thank you for all your help. 

[Ivor Anderson]

4 minutes ago, Sandy said:

Would anyone else agree that in the second one he gives his marital status as W. ?    

I would say it is ambiguous there. Options are not stroked out and what could be either an M or a W written. He would not have filled the card out. A clerk would have.

[Mark1959]

Its an M not a W. So Married. The first card shows Married with Single and Widower crossed out. The pension cards seem to have been made up on his discharge. The are some admin notes on the cards to 1925. My guess is he was still alive then but others are more expert at deciphering these cards.

What the medal roll tells us he went to France on the 11/5/1915. The 11th Royal Scots landed there in May 1915 and it seems certain he was with the main body of the unit. We know from the roll and the cards he was discharged to the reserve on 19/4/1919.

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Mark1959

[Mark1959]

 

A Menzies

Private

Service Number: 512549

Ailment: Pyrexia of unknown origin

Date of Admission for Original Ailment: 09/03/1918

Date Transferred to Sick Convoy: 10/03/1918

Notes written in the Observations Column: From 1/5th Highland Field Ambulance. To No.11 Ambulance Train.

Religion: Presbyterian

Regiment: Labour Corps

Battalion:199th Labour Company (Why is this important?)

Archive Reference:  Medical Records of Servicemen from No. 3 Casualty Clearing Station

Mark: Above transcribed record shows he was already with the Labour by this date in 1918. LC men were often medically downgraded men. Given his later cards showing ailments possibly reason for transfer. 3 CCS was apparently at Grévillers on this date

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Mark1959

[Theletterwriter]

Sandy

The information below has come from the ScotlandsPeople statutory records site : -

a). Andrew Menzies (illegitimate) was born on 17 December 1879 (birth not registered until 16 January 1880) at 24 Cleveland Street Glasgow. His father is recorded as Andrew Menzies (Carriage Driver) and his mother was Mary Miller widow of Thomas McLachlan (steamship fireman) who died December 1875. 

b). Andrew Menzies (Coachman) age 25 was married to Mary Ann Harrow Thompson age 17 on 24 January 1908 at 50 Kent Road, Anderston, Glasgow according to the forms of the United Free Church of Scotland. His address was 45 Dorset Street Glasgow and her address was 41 Dorset Street Glasgow. His parents are recorded as Andrew Menzies (Coachman) and Mary Menzies m.s. Miller. Her parents were John Thompson (Labourer) and Annie Thompson m.s. Robertson.

c). I could not see an Andrew Menzies with a Mary or Mary Ann on the 1911 Census. However, at 60 Cedar Street Glasgow, Andrew Menzies aged 29 (Cabman) and his wife Annie aged 20 are recorded. The Census also indicates they had been married for 3 years and had 2 children with only one surviving. The surviving child was not with them at the time of the Census.

d). The valuation rolls of 1920 show an Andrew Menzies living at 51 Raglan Street, Glasgow. These rolls only show the name of the tenant but not his family.

e). Jumping ahead, Mary Ann Harrow Menzies age 67 years died on 27 November 1958 at Ruchill Hospital Glasgow. She is recorded as the widow of Andrew Menzies, Coachman and her usual residence was Garscube Road, Glasgow. The death certificate was witnessed by a daughter H. McCrae.

f). A Helen Menzies (Domestic Servant) was married on 28 December 1934 at St. John’s Parish Church, Glasgow to William Dickson McCrae. She was 22 and he was 26 and their address was recorded for both as 13 Little Dovehill, Glasgow. Her parents were Andrew Menzies (deceased) cab driver and Mary Ann Harrow Menzies m.s. Thompson.

g). Lily McConvey Menzies (Domestic Servant) was married on 29 December 1937 at The Seafield Arms Hotel, Rothes, Moray to George Simpson. She was 21 and he was 28 and their address was recorded for both as 14 Burnside Street, Rothes. Her parents were Andrew Menzies chauffeur and Mary Ann Harrow Menzies m.s. Thompson. N.B. Andrew Menzies was not recorded as being deceased.

h). Finally, a Victor Miller Menzies (single) farm worker age 38 died on 26 May 1953 at Ruchill Hospital, Glasgow. His usual address was 49 Greendyke Street, Glasgow. His parents were Andrew Menzies (deceased) motor vehicle driver and Mary Ann Harrow Menzies m.s. Thompson. The death certificate was witnessed by his mother.

I would think your best bet is to look for other children after 1920 which will narrow Andrew Menzies date of death further. It would appear he had died by 1935 if Helen Menzies’ marriage certificate is correct. Interestingly on a quick search between 1920 – 1935, I could not see a record of his death in Scotland. We are still waiting for the 1921 Scotland Census to be published so when this finally is on-line, you may get more information about Andrew Menzies and his family.

Regards

Douglas

[Matlock1418]

There is another disabilty claim pension card for Andrew MENZIES, 512549, Labour Corps - also with his earlier 12165 [Royal Scots] number

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

The MoP case reference numbers starting 1/ [Glasgow} 7/ [Leicester] and 11/ [London] seem to record his passage south.

Also shows he was transferred to the Z Army Reserve, Labour Corps [based on the PLIC above, 19-4-19]

The other Pension Ledger Index Cards previously posted above appear to show his rupture/hernia was likely troubling him most - The Leicester and London one's reverse shows a final gratuity, £50 being paid 18/11/20 as 1% disability.

That said the other PLIC with the Glasgow and Leicester addresses has later entries on the front and rear entries for 1922 when a Treatment File appears to have been opened and continuing entries to at least 26-12-25

Unfortunately the main awards file appears lost/likely deliberately destroyed [the typical fate of such files - I could not find his amongst the very few retain 'PIN 26' files at The National Archives]

This chap doesn't appear to have died in 1919.

M

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Matlock1418

[Sandy]

Greetings all,  

Thank you Douglas, that's an amazing amount of information.  Some of which I am aware of as I had contact a long time ago with the granddaughter of Lily.  She had general information but nothing on Andrew (1880).   There is a mention that Mary Anne may have also been known as Annie and that Lily was the last child in the family.  A son called John died in 1909 aged 1 year.

Question please:

If he was discharged to the Reserve in 1919 does this mean he was no longer on active/regular service and was now a civilian that could be called up if needed?   

[Ivor Anderson]

6 hours ago, Sandy said:

If he was discharged to the Reserve in 1919 does this mean he was no longer on active/regular service and was now a civilian that could be called up if needed?   

Yes. A precaution in case hostilities kicked off again - no need for re-enlistment. Found this birth certificate attached to a Ancestry tree - confirms his 1911 address:

I cannot see an obvious candidate re his death in England or Scotland post WW1.

The fact that he is recorded as 'deceased' on his daughter's 1934 MC only shows what the family believed/said at the time.

Andrew's father (Andrew 1848-1917) died at 51 Raglan Street, Glasgow on 18th October 1917.

Edited 29 June , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Sandy]

Mark1959, do you have the full page of the form S.B 36 especially the one with the 51 Ragland Street address?  If it is easier to email it my address is (removed by moderator) 

Thankyou.

 

[Michelle Young]

I’ve removed your email address from your post. Spammers visit and can harvest information posted on here.