Canadian uniform and rank?

[LBright]

Hello,

The following picture is of my GG grandfather who was born in England.  In his late teens he moved to Canada.  In about 1916 he enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces and served time in France.  He was a miner in England and was a sapper in WWI.

Is this a Canadian uniform? 

Does anyone know what rank this is?  His papers say he was a private, not corporal.

Would this uniform match what a Canadian Expeditionary Force soldier wear?   

Any thoughts or information would be very helpful.  

Thank you very much for your time and help.

Lori

[FROGSMILE]

Hello Lori, he is a Lance Corporal, which wasn’t a rank at that time, but instead an appointment to see how a man performed when given low level authority over other men.  If successful the man so appointed would be then promoted to the next substantive rank above private, which was corporal (2-stripes), that then attracted extra pay and the commencement of ‘seniority’ (a start date) for any further career promotion, but also for pension earning service at that enhanced rate.  Because lance corporal was just a temporary appointment (the unsuccessful, or no longer required would eventually revert) then on service records the substantive rank remained recorded as private.

The uniform he wears is British and was for logistical reasons issued to Canadians deployed in France and Flanders after they completed their work-up training in Britain.  Unlike the majority of British units at that time the Canadians wore collar badges, often in the shape of miniature maple leaves, but occasionally in other designs depending upon the ‘arm of service’ (infantry, artillery,etc.).  A brass shoulder title was also worn that you can just see at the end of his shoulder strap.  If you declare the unit mentioned on his record it might be possible to find an example of the collar badge and post it here for you to see.

Edited 27 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

His name, and any biographical details would also assist the forum in helping you.

[Acknown]

Lori (?) - Thank you and welcome to the Forum. To this inexpert observer, his indistinct collar badges do resemble WW1 Canadian Royal Engineers: https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/ww1-canadian-engineers-corps-canada-cef-cap-badge-3.html. Could we have his full name, DOB and regimental number, if you have it? We can then look him up to see if we can find his service record.

Acknown

Edited 27 June , 2022 by Acknown

[LBright]

Thank you Frogsmile for your expert advice and help.  I will ask my mom about or grandfather about his papers to learn his unit.

Thank you Michelle Young for the suggestion.  I will ask my mom or grandfather about the details.  I really do not know much, only what they have told me.

Thank you Acknown for your help and suggestion. 

Thank you all.  I really appreciate your time and help. 

One more question please - are the buttons on his collar look like maple leaves?  It looks like it to me because they are not round, but the pic is not real good, so when I enlarge it, it really doesn't clear up the image.

 

Thank you 

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, LBright said:

Thank you Frogsmile for your expert advice and help.  I will ask my mom about or grandfather about his papers to learn his unit.

Thank you Michelle Young for the suggestion.  I will ask my mom or grandfather about the details.  I really do not know much, only what they have told me.

Thank you Acknown for your help and suggestion. 

Thank you all.  I really appreciate your time and help. 

One more question please - are the buttons on his collar look like maple leaves?  It looks like it to me because they are not round, but the pic is not real good, so when I enlarge it, it really doesn't clear up the image.

 

Thank you 

The insignia on his collar are not buttons, but the “collar badges” that I mentioned in the second paragraph of my reply.  A majority (but not all) were based on a brass Maple leaf, albeit often with other detail embossed on top.  For example, the Winnipeg associated (Grenadiers) regiment had that unit’s emblem superimposed.  See: https://www.regimentalbadges.com/en-GB/canada/prodcat_1054

Edited 27 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

As you say he was a “sapper” that refers specifically to two things, first it is the equivalent of private (the lowest rank) within the Royal Engineers and their brethren in the Canadian Engineers, and secondly it is the nickname - “The Sappers” by which all British and Commonwealth nations’ engineers are known.

A second important point is that as a technical corps, and instead of a lance corporal, the engineers had two positions who wore a single stripe, exactly as in your photo.  The first was Acting Second Corporal, who was exactly the same role as the lance corporal that I described, and so an appointment.  The second, was Second Corporal, which was a substantive promotion from Sapper, and so paid at a higher rate and with pension rights for reckonable service.  The next step above that was Corporal, who had two-stripes.

I’m assuming that the Canadian Engineers would have observed the same organisational protocol and rank structure, as the Royal Engineers were their original inspiration.  I enclose images of the Canadian Engineers insignia including collar badge and buttons for you to compare (the other object is a lapel pin).

Edited 28 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[LBright]

Thank you so much Frogsmile.  Thank you for the valuable information and the education.  This really clears things up.  I was clueless as to what all this means, therefore I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to clarify things for me.

 

Years and years ago, my grandfather told us that his dad's WWI jacket button was in a button jar that my mom had.  Over the years, this button could have easily disappeared because I do not see anything that looks like it belongs on a military uniform.  We have had this jar of buttons for over 50 years.

 

I now have that jar and the only coat button I found is attached as a photograph.  I have searched the Internet and though I really could not find specific information on it, it appears that it is not military and is simply an ornamental button that might have been on some sort of sport jacket.

 

Just to confirm this...would you have any thoughts on this button?  I believe the words are AEVAIMVIEDND or AEVALMVLEND. 

 

Thank you again for all of your help. 

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, LBright said:

Thank you so much Frogsmile.  Thank you for the valuable information and the education.  This really clears things up.  I was clueless as to what all this means, therefore I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to clarify things for me.

 

Years and years ago, my grandfather told us that his dad's WWI jacket button was in a button jar that my mom had.  Over the years, this button could have easily disappeared because I do not see anything that looks like it belongs on a military uniform.  We have had this jar of buttons for over 50 years.

 

I now have that jar and the only coat button I found is attached as a photograph.  I have searched the Internet and though I really could not find specific information on it, it appears that it is not military and is simply an ornamental button that might have been on some sort of sport jacket.

 

Just to confirm this...would you have any thoughts on this button?  I believe the words are AEVAIMVIEDND or AEVALMVLEND. 

 

Thank you again for all of your help. 

 

 

It’s a relatively crude interpretation/representation of the coat of arms of the sovereign state of Belgium.  Belgium was symbolic because it was the nation state whose invasion by Germany brought Britain and its Dominions and overseas territories into WW1.

It’s not a military button for Belgium, as their Army used the simple Lion of Flanders (from the centre of the coat of arms).  It looks like a more modern ‘blazer’ (navy blue sport jacket) type button. Perhaps forum friend @Marilynemay be able to comment if it has any significance.

Edited 28 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[LBright]

Thank you Frogsmile for taking the time to answer my question.  It is very much appreciated and I will follow up with your referral.  I imagine it is simply a button for a modern-day blazer, nothing more, but it doesn't hurt to ask Marilyne.

 

Thank you again.

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, LBright said:

Thank you Frogsmile for taking the time to answer my question.  It is very much appreciated and I will follow up with your referral.  I imagine it is simply a button for a modern-day blazer, nothing more, but it doesn't hurt to ask Marilyne.

 

Thank you again.

I’m glad to help Lori.  Your GG grandfather’s case has intrigued me because you say his papers state the rank of private rather than sapper. That has made me wonder if the Canadian Engineers were not yet officially using that term other than informally.  Like so many military terms, the word’s origin was French as ‘Sapeur’ (sometimes Sapeur Militaire), which might perhaps have caused some sensitivity back then in the Anglophone parts of Canada.

Edited 28 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[LBright]

Thank you very much Frogsmile.  I asked my mom for clarification.  I hope I didn't confuse things - I may have gotten some stuff wrong.

My mother talked to my grandfather and he said the papers showed the following:

Rank = sapper

Enlisted in the Canadian Engineers (CEF)

3rd Tunneling Coy. C.E. 

The papers show the rank as sapper, but there are some instances where it is crossed out and pvt. is written in.  

Thank you for all of your help.

 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, LBright said:

Thank you very much Frogsmile.  I asked my mom for clarification.  I hope I didn't confuse things - I may have gotten some stuff wrong.

My mother talked to my grandfather and he said the papers showed the following:

Rank = sapper

Enlisted in the Canadian Engineers (CEF)

3rd Tunneling Coy. C.E. 

The papers show the rank as sapper, but there are some instances where it is crossed out and pvt. is written in.  

Thank you for all of your help.

 

Thank you Lori, that all makes sense now.  It is a fine photograph of a Canadian Engineer from WW1.  It also confirms that he was appointed Acting Second Corporal because his substantive rank on the papers still reads as sapper/private.

I imagine that the museum of the successors to the Canadian Engineers (the “Canadian Military Engineers - CME) might like to have an electronic copy of the photo.  See: http://www.cmemuseum.ca/index_e/visit_e/faq3_e.htm#faq1

Edited 28 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[LBright]

Thank you