Henry Tonathy KRRC #204645

[Allan1892]

Henry was originally with the RASC as a baker. His surviving papers record that whilst he was with the 15 Field Bakery he was compulsory transferred into the 11th Service Battalion of the KRRC on the 24 December 1917. As his record shows that he returned to France on the 23 March 1918, can anyone tell me where in England he would have undergone further training as a rifleman.

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

Henry was originally with the RASC as a baker. His surviving papers record that whilst he was with the 15 Field Bakery he was compulsory transferred into the 11th Service Battalion of the KRRC on the 24 December 1917. As his record shows that he returned to France on the 23 March 1918, can anyone tell me where in England he would have undergone further training as a rifleman.

His record shows he was in France when transferred, I think. He had leave to England on 8/3/18 and returned to France 22/3/18. 

Charlie

[Allan1892]

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

His record shows he was in France when transferred, I think. He had leave to England on 8/3/18 and returned to France 22/3/18. 

Charlie

Thank for replying Charlie. Yes, I have his service papers and it looks like he was in France when transferred but I wasn't sure if he would have had to undergo further training back in the UK when he was transferred into the KRRC. Looks as though he, like many, many other compulsory transferred men, was thrown in at the deep end.

[Allan1892]

17 hours ago, charlie962 said:

He had leave to England on 8/3/18 and returned to France 22/3/18.

War diary shows that 84 OR from ASC AOC RAMC joined the Battalion on the 29th December 1917 'to be trained as infantrymen' -- anybody have an idea why a soldier still receiving training (or just finished training) would be granted 14 days home leave just before the German spring offensive. (there were no immediate family problems / deaths etc at the time)

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

anybody have an idea why a soldier still receiving training (or just finished training) would be granted 14 days home leave

Didn't he get a promotion at that time?

[Allan1892]

14 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Didn't he get a promotion at that time?

Would he have been granted home leave for being a Lance Corporal?

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting that it was stated in the war diary that a draft was received “to be trained as infantrymen”, I would have expected that training to be conducted at an infantry base depot that serviced KRRC.  Perhaps they were sent on to the IBD.  I say this because an operational infantry battalion wouldn’t have had the necessary resources, or access to small arms and grenade ranges and training areas to conduct the training in-house.

As regards leave I recall that there was a General or Administrative Order (I forget which) ordered at one point that men who had been in theatre over a certain amount of time were to be granted a period of home leave as a priority (barring emergency).  Men who had been out the longest received greater priority. I don’t know if that’s what happened with the subject soldier but it seems a possible answer.

Edited 28 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Interesting that it was stated in the war diary that a draft was received “to be trained as infantrymen”, I would have expected that training to be conducted at an infantry base depot that serviced KRRC.  Perhaps they were sent on to the IBD.  I say this because an operational infantry battalion wouldn’t have had the necessary resources, or access to small arms and grenade ranges and training areas to conduct the training in-house.

As regards leave I recall that there was a General or Administrative Order (I forget which) ordered at one point that men who had been in theatre over a certain amount of time were to be granted a period of home leave as a priority (barring emergency).  Men who had been out the longest received greater priority. I don’t know if that’s what happened with the subject soldier but it seems a possible answer.

Thanks for replying Mr F -- the soldier in question enlisted into the RASC (he was a baker by trade) on the 25 October 1915. He went to France on 3 March 1916 serving with the 56 Field Bakery and then the 15 Field Bakery. His service papers shows that he was compulsory transferred into the 11th Btn KRRC on the 24 December 1917. Reading the war diaries I came up with the entry on 29 December which reflects a draft of '84 O.R. combed out from ASC AOC RAMC join the Bde Depot Coy to be trained as infantrymen'. [I couldn't decipher part of the entry so on another post, I asked for assistance, and the red text was given]

I'm always looking to be corrected in my thoughts / assumptions and as said before on the forum, 'everyday a learning day'

 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Thanks for replying Mr F -- the soldier in question enlisted into the RASC (he was a baker by trade) on the 25 October 1915. He went to France on 3 March 1916 serving with the 56 Field Bakery and then the 15 Field Bakery. His service papers shows that he was compulsory transferred into the 11th Btn KRRC on the 24 December 1917. Reading the war diaries I came up with the entry on 29 December which reflects a draft of '84 O.R. combed out from ASC AOC RAMC join the Bde Depot Coy to be trained as infantrymen'. [I couldn't decipher part of the entry so on another post, I asked for assistance, and the red text was given]

I'm always looking to be corrected in my thoughts / assumptions and as said before on the forum, 'everyday a learning day'

 

Thank you for taking the trouble to respond Allan, I’m interested to see that they indeed went to an IBD for their training.  Craig has recorded the location of all the IBD and which regiments they serviced so it should be possible to pin that down.  From his dates in theatre I strongly suspect he was given home leave because he’d been out so long, but also because he was changing arm of service.  It was widely recognised that the infantry had higher casualty rates (hence combing out) and by that stage of the war there seems to have been a degree of compassion among the authorities permitting home leave whenever possible within the bounds of “interests of the service”. 

[Allan1892]

Thank you again Mr F

@ss002d6252 -- Craig, Mr F mentioned in his last reply to me  'Craig has recorded the location of all the IBD and which regiments they serviced so it should be possible to pin that down'. Is it possible that you know where IBS for the 11th Btn KRRC was based in December 1917 / January 1918?

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

Thank you again Mr F

@ss002d6252 -- Craig, Mr F mentioned in his last reply to me  'Craig has recorded the location of all the IBD and which regiments they serviced so it should be possible to pin that down'. Is it possible that you know where IBS for the 11th Btn KRRC was based in December 1917 / January 1918?

I only had a list for 1916 - They were at Havre in July 1916 at 1 IBD.

Craig

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

I only had a list for 1916 - They were at Havre in July 1916 at 1 IBD.

Craig

Thanks Craig, I doubt that they moved.  They were so close to the channel ports there and I’m not sure if there was much movement of establishments that far back in the Base Area, even with the alarm of the German Spring Offensive advances.

Edited 28 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

@ss002d6252 Thank you Craig

@FROGSMILE 

48 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Craig, I doubt that they moved.  They were so close to the channel ports there and I’m not sure if there was much movement of establishments that far back in the Base Area, even with the alarm of the German Spring Offensive advances.

This soldier was with the 15 Field Bakery before his transfer to the KRRC -- I understand that the 15 Field Bakery were in the Calais area at the time of his transfer.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

@ss002d6252 Thank you Craig

@FROGSMILE 

This soldier was with the 15 Field Bakery before his transfer to the KRRC -- I understand that the 15 Field Bakery were in the Calais area at the time of his transfer.

Yes most of the large field bakeries were at the base and at the latter part of the war numbers of the male bakers were replaced by women from Queen Mary’s Auxiliary Army Corps in order to free up more men for the combatant arms.  This was part of a wider policy review where supposed soft trades were examined to seek what was from a wartime point of view a better use of men.

Edited 28 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

His service record does show him as being trfd to ASC BD (HT&S) on 17/12/17 then to A Inf Base Depot on 20/12/17 just before his Compulsory Trf to KRRC on 24/12/17.

LongLongTrail shows A IBD as being at LeHavre and being the former No1 IBD. 

I cannot decypher the date on his record when he actually joined 11 KRRC.

Charlie

[Matlock1418]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

male bakers

I'm sure you have plenty of images of male bakers too.

Sadly the LLT doesn't have many.  https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-army-service-corps-in-the-first-world-war/field-bakeries-of-the-army-service-corps

M

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

His service record does show him as being trfd to ASC BD (HT&S) on 17/12/17 then to A Inf Base Depot on 20/12/17 just before his Compulsory Trf to KRRC on 24/12/17.

LongLongTrail shows A IBD as being at LeHavre and being the former No1 IBD. 

I cannot decypher the date on his record when he actually joined 11 KRRC.

Charlie

Thanks Charlie, that closes the loop very neatly. 

[stiletto_33853]

Transferred under ACI 1528 of 1916. He would have had an A prefix to his six figure number, B for the Rifle Brigade. In a lot of instances these were base grabs on arrival in France. There were a lot of ASC transferred into both Regiments. This number sequence started originally in September 1916 and were usually in batches.

 

Andy

[Allan1892]

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

His service record does show him as being trfd to ASC BD (HT&S) on 17/12/17 then to A Inf Base Depot on 20/12/17 just before his Compulsory Trf to KRRC on 24/12/17.

LongLongTrail shows A IBD as being at LeHavre and being the former No1 IBD. 

I cannot decypher the date on his record when he actually joined 11 KRRC.

Charlie

Thank you Charlie, your eyes are better than mine.

Re: the date of when he actually joined the 11 KRRC 'in the field' -- as you say, the date is difficult to see. The attached snippet negative image of the date perhaps shows a date starting with a '3' ?? -- He was on his way back to France on the 23 March so possibly caught up with the Battalion by the 30th 31st ?? I have looked at the war diary entry for both dates but no mention of men joining the Battalion. It would have been nice to have the date but we know he was with the 11 KRRC for the rest of the war.

11 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

He would have had an A prefix to his six figure number

Yes his KRRC number was A204645

[MBrockway]

Many parallels with Rfn Stanley PETTY, A/204642, 11/KRRC, compulsorily transferred to KRRC from No 16 Field Bakery, ASC on the same day, 24 Dec 1917.

We did a large topic on Stanley back in 2010 - see here.

This topic also has detail on AO 204 of 1918, which set up these transfers combed from the Base units.

 

Mark

 

[aconnolly]

 

On 29/06/2022 at 09:11, Matlock1418 said:

I'm sure you have plenty of images of male bakers too.

 

NZEF Field Bakery Western Front (courtesy National Library NZ)

[Allan1892]

@MBrockway Many thanks for the link to the old post, very interesting reading.

Allan