Help dating a photo

[Pip]

Hello again here I am trying to find out any info regarding this pic, unit and time frame am curious about the horse badge on the coller , as far as we are aware it's our grandfather pte Bartlett Cecil elmes royal Sussex regiment killed in action 1914 or Cecil Bartlett elmes royal Hampshire regiment 1939 to 1950 thanks in advance 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

East Riding of Yorkshire Yeomanry.  The cap badge is a running fox at full stretch with the regimental motto ‘FORRARD’ (i.e. forward) on a scroll beneath.  The collar is the same, but without scroll and motto.  The Yeomanry regiments were ‘auxiliary’ (part-time) citizen cavalry.  As well as infantry, most counties and the towns within them had local yeomanry units that men could join and attend for drill sessions weekly and a fortnight’s training camp in the summer each year.  In peacetime they were akin to a working mens club in terms of the social opportunities that they provided.

NB.  He looks very young and so almost certainly joined as a Boy Trumpeter either at the beginning of the war or just before.  I suspect that as a fit young man he was later transferred to infantry when it was realised that the need for cavalry was far less.  Also many yeomanry units found themselves converted wholesale to infantry later in the war (1917-1918).

It could be either of the men you mentioned unfortunately.  The uniform shown was in service from 1905, so it could be the older man if he joined as a boy that early.  Cavalry units, both regular and auxiliary, quite commonly wore collar badges with that uniform (although not all chose to do so) well before it was usual for the infantry to do so. @nfh249has a database of East Riding Yeomanry members and might be able to look up your forebears names when he sees this.  See also:  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/296161-which-regiment/

 

 

Edited 25 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[AndrewSid]

Bartlett who was killed in WW1 with the 2nd Royal Sussex Regiment on the 12 Nov 1914 deployed to France on the 12 Aug 1914 with them.  Prior to that he would have had to transfer to the Sussex Regiment.  I’m no expert but that photo just looks too good to have been taken in early 1914 at the latest ?  I could of course be very wrong…

Andy

Edited 25 June , 2022 by AndrewSid

[PRC]

I don't know if it's just me, but the entry for Bartlett on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website appears to have disappeared. A check using Geoff's Search Engine shows it should be there, but when you click on the link to go through to the CWGC database, the link is broken.

So apologies if I miss anything that is blatantly obvious because it's stated on his CWGC webpage.

Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as Private L/6315 Bartlett Cecil Elmes, born Holloway, Middlesex and enlisted Chichester.
There are no obvious surviving service records.
Paul Nixon's Army Service Numbers website shows that the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Sussex Regiment would have issued that number at some point between the 7th February 1900, (L/6183) and the 16th February 1901, (L/6368). For him to have gone to war with that service number he would have had to have still serving under a continuous term of enlistment. Standard enlistments were either 12 years, (split into a period in the colours, i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7, and receiving full board, lodgings and pay, and a period in the reserves when he would be back in civvy street and receiving half pay), or 21 years in the colours to receive a service pension. Given that he was still a Private in August 1914 I would speculate that he was a 12 year man who applied to extend his service in the reserves for another four years, although it is possible, considering when he went overseas with his unit, that he was a 21 year man.

That does however make it next to impossible for him to have served in the East Riding of Yorkshire Yeomanry prior to joining the Royal Sussex Regiment. @FROGSMILE can speak more authoritatively about such matters, but I don't believe the style of uniform the soldier was wearing was in use in 1901 or earlier. According to Wikipedia, the East Riding of Yorkshire Yeomanry wasn't even formed until 1902. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Riding_of_Yorkshire_Yeomanry

As for the place of birth, the only matching record that I can see in the civil birth records is that for a Cecil Bartlett Elmes, mothers' maiden Oke, which was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District of London in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1882. So if it's the same man then looks like he enlisted either on or just after his 18th birthday.

The Royal Hampshire man is I suspect the Cecil Bartlett Albert Elmes, mothers' maiden name Brandon, whose birth was registered with the civil authorities in the Lambeth District of London in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1915. I suspect you would need to apply to the Ministry of Defence for his service records to see if there is any record of service with the East Riding of Yorkshire Yeomanry. https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

Seems unlikely the photo is either man. Are there any other potential Elmes it might have been?

Cheers,

Peter

[TullochArd]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

I don't know if it's just me, but the entry for Bartlett on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website appears to have disappeared. A check using Geoff's Search Engine shows it should be there, but when you click on the link to go through to the CWGC database, the link is broken.

L/6315 Pte Bartlett Cecil ELMES is here Peter.

Private Bartlett Cecil Elmes | War Casualty Details L/6315 | CWGC

It adds nothing to the thread.

[FROGSMILE]

In theory the earliest possible date for the East Riding of Yorkshire Yeomanry boy soldier would be 1905, as that was when the service dress cap became available for issue.  However, it’s extremely unlikely to be before 1908, I think, as uniforms were procured by the County Territorial Force Associations, and so there tended to be a delay to new equipment issues (as far as possible older clothing was worn out) when compared with the Regular Army.  If not one of the brothers mentioned by the OP, then it seems likely to be some other family member, or friend.  It would be interesting to see the full head and shoulders of the boy so that his shoulder titles and other uniform aspects could be examined.  It appears to be a fine portrait.

Edited 26 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

4 hours ago, TullochArd said:

L/6315 Pte Bartlett Cecil ELMES is here Peter.

Private Bartlett Cecil Elmes | War Casualty Details L/6315 | CWGC

It adds nothing to the thread.

Thank you for checking - I haven't got a clue what I did wrong or whether it was a temporary glitch on the website. I think I'll just go for my old standby of senility

And as you say, adds nothing that will help identify who the picture is of.

10 hours ago, PRC said:

Paul Nixon's Army Service Numbers website shows that the Regular Army Battalions of the Royal Sussex Regiment would have issued that number at some point between the 7th February 1900, (L/6183) and the 16th February 1901, (L/6368).

Many of his contemporaries who enlisted for 12 years will have completed their service prior to the Great War in one way or another. So unless they chose to extend their time in the reserves by the additional four years, their service records may well have survived as they were stored in a separate location to those from the Great War.

The following are held in the National Archive category WO97.

(L) 6310 James Moore enlisted for 12 years, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves, at Brighton on the 7th November 1900. He reached the Depot at Chichester, where he and the others would receive their service number, the same day. He had no previous military experience.

(L) 6312 James Edwards enlisted for 12 years, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves, at Brighton on the 8th November 1900. He reached the Depot at Chichester the same day. At the time of enlistment he was serving with a militia unit, the Sussex Artillery.

(L) 6314 Alfred William Hawkins enlisted for 12 years, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves, at Hounslow on the 7th November 1900. He reached the Depot at Chichester the same day. At the time of enlistment he was serving with a militia unit, the 7th Battalion, Rifle Brigade.

(L) 6317 Charles Jones enlisted for 12 years, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves, at Woolwich on the 13th November 1900. He reached the Depot at Chichester the same day. He had no previous military experience.

(L) 6318 Daniel Cowan enlisted for 12 years, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves, at Portsmouth on the 15th November 1900. He reached the Depot at Chichester the same day. He had no previous military experience.

So likely Bartlett Elmes enlisted in the Regular Army between the 7th November and the 13th November 1900.

He turns up on the 1911 Census of England & Wales as the 28 year old unmarried Private Bartlett Cecil Elmes, born Holloway, Middlesex, who was then in barracks with the 1st Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment at Rawalpindi in the Punjab, India. So again may have been a 21 year men or if he liked the life he simply requested to change the split on his 12 year enlistment in order to do the whole thing in the colours.

Hope that’s of interest.
Peter

[nfh249]

No Elmes in my database I'm afraid. Definitely a photo of a Yeoman, after 1910 (when the fox with scroll badge seems to have replaced the original 'skinny' fox seen here still worn as the collar badges)

Cheers,

Neil

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, nfh249 said:

No Elmes in my database I'm afraid. Definitely a photo of a Yeoman, after 1910 (when the fox with scroll badge seems to have replaced the original 'skinny' fox seen here still worn as the collar badges)

Cheers,

Neil

Thank you Neil, it seems likely a different family member or friend then.

[Pip]

Ok, guys again you have given me a whole new avenue to wander down, your knowledge and insight to the period is amazing, I know I seem to miss bits out but we have scant knowledge of the history of our family at this time, we know the Cecil died in the November of 1914 and with your help I have put together some idea of his last days, his brother William francis died in the 9th may 1915 l6152 same regiment as his brother, we also have a 3rd brother we know nothing of as the cwwgc gives mention to him other than stating on Williams page that he has one of these brothers who fell, my father Cecil Bartlett was born 1915 in the January he to served in the second world war and was at dunkirk and landed on d day! Again thanks for all your help in solving some puzzles 

[FROGSMILE]

17 hours ago, Pip said:

Ok, guys again you have given me a whole new avenue to wander down, your knowledge and insight to the period is amazing, I know I seem to miss bits out but we have scant knowledge of the history of our family at this time, we know the Cecil died in the November of 1914 and with your help I have put together some idea of his last days, his brother William francis died in the 9th may 1915 l6152 same regiment as his brother, we also have a 3rd brother we know nothing of as the cwwgc gives mention to him other than stating on Williams page that he has one of these brothers who fell, my father Cecil Bartlett was born 1915 in the January he to served in the second world war and was at dunkirk and landed on d day! Again thanks for all your help in solving some puzzles 

Can you obtain a better image (more than just head) of the boy soldier? 

Edited 16 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Pip]

I will ask around the family to see who has what in terms of pictures, as suggested it may be a friend of the family, the picture actually was on the wall of nanny elmes parlour for many years her husband being the late cecil elmes, maybe it was her brother we just don't know unfortunately ,while I have your attention again any thoughts on how to find the third brother ? Cwwg say that William francis elmes was one of three brothers to fall, we know of William and Cecil but the third brother eludes us to the day! A mistake by them maybe?

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Pip said:

I will ask around the family to see who has what in terms of pictures, as suggested it may be a friend of the family, the picture actually was on the wall of nanny elmes parlour for many years her husband being the late cecil elmes, maybe it was her brother we just don't know unfortunately ,while I have your attention again any thoughts on how to find the third brother ? Cwwg say that William francis elmes was one of three brothers to fall, we know of William and Cecil but the third brother eludes us to the day! A mistake by them maybe?

I can’t help with the genealogical sleuthing I’m afraid Pip, but there are many excellent detectives here.  Perhaps @PRC or @TEW to mention just two of them, might be able to help, I don’t know.

[nfh249]

What was Nanny Elmes' maiden name?

[ss002d6252]

This would appear to be Cecil's birth.

 

Parent's marriage



From FMP.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

The family in 1881 - looks like 4 brothers. James L Elmes was the oldest brother and then there was Frederick H, William F and (not shown) Cecil.



From FMP.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

James' birth details shows he was James Lonsdale Elmes.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Frederick was Frederick Harvey Elmes.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Looking at the 1891 census we can be safe on the fact that there were 4 brothers, so a third has to be James or Frederick.

Craig

[nfh249]

Sorry, no Oke's in my ERY database either, so probably not a brother.

Cheers, 

Neil

[PRC]

Just fleshing out some of what has been already posted.

If the mothers’ maiden name is Oke then I’m spotting only one likely marriage in England & Wales – that of a Frederick Lonsdale Elmes to a Maria Rebecca Oke which was recorded in the Holborn District of London in the July to September quarter, (Q3) of 1874.

There are 7 likely children registered in England & Wales with surname Elmes, mothers’ maiden name Oke:-
Q2 1875 James Lonsdale Elmes, Hampstead District.
Q2 1876 Frederick Harvey Elmes, Hampstead District
Q2 1877 Mary Elmes, Islington District
Q1 1879 Florence Christine Carola Elmes, Islington District
Q1 1880 William Francis Elmes, Islington District
Q1 1881 Hugh Erskine Elmes, Islington District
Q3 1882 Cecil Bartlett Elmes, Islington District. (GRO site actually shows Cecil Bartkett Elmes, but quarterly index shows Bartlett).

No obvious deaths in England & Wales before any of them reached adulthood.

@ss002d6252 has done a summary of the family on the 1891 census above

On the 1881 Census of England & Wales the family, as Elmes, were living at 10 Hungerford Road, Islington. Along with parents Fredk. L. (38, Estate Agent, born Chelsea) and Maria R., (40, born Folkestone, Kent) are children:-

James L……….aged 5…….born Hampstead
Fredk. H…........aged 4…….born Hampstead
Mary G……….aged 3……born Islington
Florence C.C…aged 2…….born Islington
William F…….aged 1…….born Islington

But they appear to be quite elusive on the 1901 and 1911 censuses of England & Wales. There is a death of a 69 year old Frederick L Elmes recorded in the Reigate District of Surrey in Q2 1913, but no obvious probate that might have firmed up whether this was the right individual and where he was resident. However there is a 67 year old Frederick Elmes, aged 67, a Stationery Agent, born Kensington, London, who was recorded as the married head of the household at 5 St Mary’s Road, Reigate. He lives there with his wife of 35 years, the 70 year Maria Rebecca Elmes, born Folkestone - not sure why she didn't come up on earlier searches. That would appear to be the right couple. They actually state they have had 8 children, of which 5 were then still alive. That would seem to possibly indicate they may have lived outside England & Wales when one of those children was born and several of the children died – or there is either a error in the GRO birth & death records, or I’ve messed up

Mrs C has summoned me for household duties to I’ll have to come back and try and chase the children down a bit later – unless someone beats me to it.

Cheers,
Peter

[Pip]

1 hour ago, nfh249 said:

What was Nanny Elmes' maiden name?

Emma Brandon 

[Pip]

Nanny elmes still waiting for her man to come home many years later, she never remarried ! Her husband's last letter home the day before he died ! Seems all he had to complain about was the weather 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Pip said:

Nanny elmes still waiting for her man to come home many years later, she never remarried ! Her husband's last letter home the day before he died ! Seems all he had to complain about was the weather 

I couldn’t help noting, and pondering how poignant it seems, that he wrote that letter on the same day and month that would mark the Armistice exactly 4-years later.

Edited 16 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[nfh249]

On 16/07/2022 at 10:53, Pip said:

Emma Brandon 

No relevant Brandon's in the ERY database either... only 1 entry but that's my Grandfather 😁