Eyes, Nose, Ears, Mouth: which 17 year old brother became the Gurkha, which 15 year old, the Sandhurst Cadet?

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Research Aficionados,

Please kindly peruse the unnamed Ingram's House (Shrewsbury School) photo, taken in 1915.

The group includes the Maund brothers: John Anthony Hansby Maund, born 1898; Francis Edward Hansby Mauns, born 1900.

Which is the17 year-old future Gurkha Officer? Which is the 15 year-old future Sandhurst Cadet?

I will highly appreciate GWF members responses, comparing eyes, noses, ears and mouths of these Boys, soon to see War Service...

I am researching the Life of J. A. H. Maund, 6th etc., Gurkhas (1918-23); Stockbroker; and District Officer, Nigeria Civil Service (1925-60).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[PRC]

Working assumptions would have to be that the nine seated on the ground would be too young to be the 15 year old, and of course that there is indeed some physical elements in common between the two siblings.  There is also a strong likelihood that the older boys in the group would be sat either side of the master.

On that basis I think I'm seeing potentially three sets of siblings - other sibling pairs may also be available

Cheers,
Peter

 

 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Peter,

For a Start, many thanks for throwing the first stone, as it were. 

Highly interesting is your educated guess for "A". That was namely one of my guesses. Not least because the older "A" Boy looks supremely confident (the real John Maund spent 1925-60 in Nigeria - "White Man's Grave" - as a District Officer). The younger "A" Boy has a similar "eye" look, as well as looking intelligent. The real Francis Maund passed out of RMC Sandhurst, served with a British Regt., and latterly managed several businesses.

Therefore, many thanks, and I will pencil in "A".

Perhaps others have conflicting ideas?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[The Inspector]

Hi KIm,

Grave photo (poor quality), John Anthony Hansby Maund  b. 25.12.1898 d. 29.7.1981. Wovercote cemetery, Oxford L2. grave 250,

Regards Barry

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Barry,

Yes, J. A. H. Maund died on 29 Jul 1981 at Oxford. 

The Gravestone, with touches of art deco, is weathered. His medals are also a bit frayed. However, he is not forgotten!

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

The real Francis Maund passed out of RMC Sandhurst, served with a British Regt., and latterly managed several businesses.

Struggling to find his commission in the London Gazette, (nothing unusual there!), but presumably there would have been a class "graduation" photo, a copy of which may still be held by RMC, Sandhurst. Have you seen his officers papers and if so when was he commissioned?

Where did James do his training - would a class "graduation" photo also be an option for him?

Even if the pictures aren't captioned with names, a similar approach of looking for facial similiarities might narrow down the choices.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Peter,

A brilliant idea! 

John passed out of Wellington Cadet College, Wellington, India (in the Nilgiris), on 31 Jan 1918 - but I do not have a graduation photo (80 plus Cadets).

Francis was a Sandhurst Cadet commd into the South Wales Borderers. I do not know the RMC graduate photo date, unfortunately!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Barry,

I believe Tolkien is buried nearby to John Maund.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

I have meamwhile scanned the "favourit" possible pairing of the Maund brothers:

The younger Francis and the older John both have very full hair, parted high on the right side. Both have distinctive eye-parties and similar mouth and chins. The younger one has closer-set ears.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Edited 27 June , 2022 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[Alisonmallen62]

Hi just to throw a spanner in the works I thought these could be siblings? 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Alisonmallen2,

Thanks for that - no , by all means: you have a very creative Spanner! 

I was quite taken by the blue-marked Pair, who have a great resemblence to one another.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Edited 25 June , 2022 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[Alisonmallen62]

It would be a long shot but I have a photo of some older officers and men taken in 1947 SWB reunion and plenty on there were 1st war soldiers.  Do you think it possible to identify your men in that compared to the younger versions? 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Alison.

Sure; why not? Any idea is worth looking at!

Kindsest regards,

Kim Lindsay.

 

[PRC]

28 minutes ago, Alisonmallen62 said:

Hi just to throw a spanner in the works I thought these could be siblings? 

Going back to my working assumptions that those nine sat on the ground were too young to have been fifteen at the time the photo was taken,  what I didn't say was I actually ruled out some of the older boys on that basis. The logic being that there didn't appear to be any record of a younger brother of John and Francis. So if any of those nine had a resemblance to an older student then that older student couldn't be John or Francis. Here's the four pairs I think are present - but it is just a guess

I think we concur about one of the pairings.

@Kimberley John Lindsay - their father was a Doctor at Newmarket at the time when the two Maund boys were at boarding school.

He gets a mention on a Newmarket website. https://talkingdust.net/john-hansby-maund/

I suspect if the website owner has a picture of the father he would have posted it. However may be worth contacting them as they may be aware if there is an image in existence. Knowing what the father looked like could give some clue as to which individuals can be ruled out.

Cheers,
Peter

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Peter,

The two coloured pale blue are very convincing. I nonetheless stick by these confident-lookig two:

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

[PRC]

20 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

I nonetheless stick by these confident-lookig two:

I'm pretty much in agreement with you in that I think they look like siblings - the question is whether they are the right two siblings

So if my working theory is correct in that we can ignore the 9 students seated on the ground and any older student who looks like them, plus the master, then the initial group of 42 gets whittled down to 28. Still a lot but a bit more manageable.

Cheers,
Peter

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Peter,

What a conundrum - but one worthy of the Great War Forum expertise, despite not going viral as many do!

I feel comfortabla that the seated Boy far left was the future 3rd Gurkha subaltern who served Egypt, Palestine, NWF etc,: John Anthony Hansby Maund,

whose younger brother by two years, can be seen standing second from left, rear-most line: Francis Edward Hansby, who passed in to RMC Sandhurst.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Interested]

Just to add to the confusion, how many pairs of brothers are in the photograph?  There might be more than the pair you are trying to identify...

Not very helpful, I know, but....

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Interested,

Thanks for your interest: most appreciated!

Quite frankly, I am at a loss to answer your question. Yes, there may coincidentally be other brother pairs in the Ingram's Hall (not House) 1915 Shrewsbury School group. However, the two I selected, had both the self-confident, and commanding Look, necessary to take Gurkha war service, Sandhurst, and so on, in their stride.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

[PRC]

In my original punt I labelled two individuals who I thought might be brothers as pair "B".

I also assumed that many of those present were like the Maund brothers and had gone on to be commissioned. Given that we are looking at potentially 41 officer candidates there would also be the sad likelihood that some of them would have died. So I tried looking at the online records of "Old Salopians" for the Great War Roll of Honour that is available on the Shrewsbury School website. https://www.shrewsbury.org.uk/page/os-first-world-war

I was initially focusing on those who left the school between 1915 and 1918 rather than looking for brothers. I came across a reference to a P. G. Finch who was killed in action serving as a Lieutenant with the Northumberland Fusiliers on the 28th March 1918. He joined the school in 1911 and left in 1915. That was a Philip Gerard Finch and one source has him leaving the Shrewsbury School to go to Sandhurst. He had been in Ingram Hall.

However no sooner do I start searching than I turned up a slightly younger brother Hugh Adair Finch who also attended Shrewsbury School. He was killed in action on the 27th August 1918 serving with the Grenadier Guards. I'm not sure why he doesn't feature on the spreadsheets on the Shrewsbury School site.

There are a number of pictures of the brothers in young life and at the school. For copyright \ academic fair usage reasons I've only cropped the faces to do a comparison but they can be seen in full at the following:-

Source 1. A young Philip Gerard Finch and presumably his father - Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1238678

Source 2. The Finch brothers and their cousins, c1907. Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1238274

Source 3. Philip Finch (2nd from right) at Shrewsbury School in 1915. Shrewsbury School. https://www.shrewsbury.org.uk/news/news-week-100-years-ago-23rd-29th-march-1918

Source 4. A picture of another casualty from his school days, Maurice Anderson McFerran centre picture also has Philip Finch, W M Lee, Gilmour and T R Bowden.  Shrewsbury School. https://www.shrewsbury.org.uk/news/news-week-100-years-ago-16th-22nd-march-1918

(This picture required a great deal of repair work in photoshop as the area where Philip Finch was has been damaged. My skills in this area leaves a lot to be desired.). When making comparison it needs to be factored in that some of the facial features have been guessed at.)

So taking the four known pictures of Philip Gerard Finch and comparing them to the oldest brother B looks like this:-

All image rights remain with the original sources and restrictions on reuse may apply.

There is only one comparison picture I could find for Hugh Adair Finch and that dates from 1907.

All image rights remain with the original sources and restrictions on reuse may apply.

As always these are best guesses, but firming up these two as the Finch brothers would make the case for the two individuals believed to be the Maund brothers a little bit stronger.

Cheers,
Peter

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Peter,

Brilliantly thought through, I am impressed.

How sad that both Finch Boys were Killed in Action: a disaster for the parents.

Philip Gerard Finch was one of most outstanding-looking of the whole group.

The kind archivist noted that the original Ingram's Hall print had not been found, leaving a faint hope that the names may yet surface!

Many thanks for your indefatigable efforts. I hardly dare say it, but the Boy standing 2nd from right in the middle row, has a great resemblance to the cross-legged Boy in front, 3rd from right!

Kindest regards,

Kim.