Inland Waterways and Docks

[Memorial Tablet]

One of my Great Grandfathers daughters married a civil engineer, Gordon Cooper. They had a son who died in infancy in 1919. The death certificate shows Gordon's employment as "Captain IW&D Royal Engineers" which I now know is the Inland Waterways and Docks directorate That is all I know about him. How do I find out more? What sort of commission would he have held? Would he have had a Record of Service and where would it be? Where and on what would he have been employed? Would/could he have served in France or Mesopotamia or elsewhere?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

A quick search of the Medal Index Cards (MICs) on ancestry shows a Capt. Gordon Cooper of Walmer in the RE (IW & D), who earned a War Medal only, not a Victory Medal. Home service only entitled the man or woman to no medals, whereas service in a theatre of war gave entitlement to both.

Sole War Medal alone, usually, but not always implies India, otherwise overseas garrisons like Malta, Gibraltar, Bermuda and so on.
Officers had to apply for medals, those that didn't apply, didn't get them, so there is no MIC in their names. So I am assuming the Walmer man is the right one.

Armed with some biographical details, you might find an officers' file for him at the National Archives. They don't bnecessarily contain that much information, but without looking, you'll never know. They're not digitised and are not available online.

[Memorial Tablet]

That is most helpful information and I am sure you have the right man as the birth certificate of his son born 12 August 1919 shows father living at 20 Clarence Road, Walmer. 

I have found an entry for a "Temp Major Gordon Cooper" with a record date of 1914 showing his unit as IW&D. Correct me if I'm wrong but at that time the IW&D was I believe a Territorial unit and did not come under the control of the Royal Engineers until 1915 when he was probably demoted on becoming a regular?

I will follow up your suggestion at the NA as I'm slowly assembling a number of relatives who served in WW!, mostly Royal Engineers. As far as I know Gordon Cooper never served abroad but that is pure guesswork.

Many thanks ...

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Memorial Tablet said:

One of my Great Grandfathers daughters married a civil engineer, Gordon Cooper. They had a son who died in infancy in 1919. The death certificate shows Gordon's employment as "Captain IW&D Royal Engineers" which I now know is the Inland Waterways and Docks directorate That is all I know about him. How do I find out more? What sort of commission would he have held? Would he have had a Record of Service and where would it be? Where and on what would he have been employed? Would/could he have served in France or Mesopotamia or elsewhere?

A search in this forum using the integral facility brings up a lot of threads on the IW&D that you might find useful with your research and questions: https://www.greatwarforum.org/search/?&q=“Inland waterways”&search_and_or=and

[kenf48]

 

55 minutes ago, Memorial Tablet said:

I have found an entry for a "Temp Major Gordon Cooper" with a record date of 1914 showing his unit as IW&D. Correct me if I'm wrong but at that time the IW&D was I believe a Territorial unit and did not come under the control of the Royal Engineers until 1915 when he was probably demoted on becoming a regular?

The Inland Waterways and Docks were not  a Terrritorial Force Unit .

His record at TNA

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1145470

Given his home address it seems likely he was employed at the IWD Richborough

The Medal Roll indicates entitlement to the BWM and VM

On Ancestry here if you subscribe

The London Gazette should indicate his commissioning

I assume you got the 1914 date from Forces War records?

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Sorry forgot to post the link to his MIC earlier. The address is 20 Clarence Road, Walmer. I am curious as to why his VM entitlement isn't  marked on the MIC, when the Medal Roll as shown by Kenf shows that entitlement was due to service in Greece.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/29142988?h=eac45c

[kenf48]

I think the officer records tend to be a bit less detailed than those of the other ranks for the reason previously stated that they had to apply for the medals. His MIC simply shows the Issue Voucher. 

The only reference so far in the LG was his appointment to Temp Lieut to date from 26th February 1917

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30129/supplement/5848

Can't seem to bring up his further promotions but then searching the LG is, as far as I'm concerned, the ninth circle of Hell.

I'm intrigued by the entry which I read as 'service in the UK from Greece' does this mean he was in Salonika? Or that he was working in Greece and came to the UK? Mystified, there are similar cryptic entries in the Roll.  According to the IWM the RE IW&D did extend  their activities to Salonika from 1917 but I have no knowledge of this.

 

 

[Memorial Tablet]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

 

The Inland Waterways and Docks were not  a Terrritorial Force Unit .

His record at TNA

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1145470

Given his home address it seems likely he was employed at the IWD Richborough

The Medal Roll indicates entitlement to the BWM and VM

On Ancestry here if you subscribe

The London Gazette should indicate his commissioning

I assume you got the 1914 date from Forces War records?

 

 

[Memorial Tablet]

Yes, I think tat's where I saw it during lockdown but not being a subscriber I didn't pursue it. I am a bit of a novice at this research stuff so I am immensely grateful for all the experts on this site and their tips and leads.

Just to add to what little I know a cousin tells me that in 1930 he was a civil engineer working for the Air Ministry,

[Memorial Tablet]

As a result of all the help I have had I have made some progress. First, the entry on Gordon's medal card referring to Greece led me to this entry in the London Gazette

Whitehall, June 17, 1916. The KING has been pleased to give and grant unto Gordon Cooper, Esq., A.M.I.C.E.,. and Charles Edwin Lefroy, Esq., A.M.I.C.E.,. His Majesty's Royal licence and authority to wear the Insignia of Chevalier of the Order of The Redeemer, which Decoration has beans conferred upon them by His Majesty the King; of the Hellenes in recognition of valuable services rendered by them.

The medal card also indicates that Gordon was deployed to Greece. Wikipedia says that the IW&D deployed 12 officers and 171 ORs to Salonika though the entry is vague on dates so presumably he could have been one of the officers.

In an album of Edith Thorp, his Mother in Law, in which she assembled photographs of her Grand Children I stumbled across 3 photos of Gordon's two oldest children Edith and Rob captioned: "Edith and Rob in Greece 26 Dec 1920"; "Edith and Rob in Greece 2^nd May 1921"; "Edith and Rob in a rowing Boat at Scaramanga." Whether Gordon was till in Greece that long after the war or whether he went back on holiday or to work as a civil engineer I don't know. Scaramanga became a thriving port and shipbuilding centre between the wars but I have not been able to find out anything about what went on there in WW1 if anything.

I conclude that the references to "Temp Major Gordon Cooper" with a record date of 1914 showing his unit as IW&D must be a different man. If Gordon was a civil engineer when the war started and he was drafted into IW&D, presumably as a 2Lt would he have had any officer training? Or would he just have been badged 2Lt RE and would/should this have been gazetted? His promotion to Lt was gazetted in an entry found by Kenf48 - thank you!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Regarding Greece, and it is unusual to see 'Greece' written on a MIC (and the war theatre codes do seem to specify 'Greek Macedonia' instead... Perhaps the bulk of the country wasn't considered a theatre of war, unlike Salonika?

Maybe if he was engaged in some civil engineering on behalf of the military , he'd qualify for the VM, but not the BWM because of that?

 

1 hour ago, Memorial Tablet said:

authority to wear the Insignia of Chevalier of the Order of The Redeemer, which Decoration has beans conferred upon them by His Majesty the King

Interesting. Never heard of that custom before. Baked, runner or French?

Edited 24 June , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[MerchantOldSalt]

The UK Civil Engineers List has a Gordon Cooper as:

A Student Member of the Institute Jan - April  1906  and Jul - Oct 1906 Editions of the List  he is at Niven & Haddin , 131 West Regent Street Glasgow 

An Associate Member of the Institute (AMICE) with the address in Jan 1916, Apr 1916, Jul 1916 , Oct 1916 editions of the List of Office of New Arsenal Works, 41 Solon Street Athens Greece.

AMICE Jul 1926 edition of the list has him as Res Engineer RAF Aerodrome Heyford Banbury

His election papers for the Institute cover the period Dec 1911 - Apr 1912 and give a pretty full description of his career to that date but unfortunately do not cover the war period as much information can be gleaned about IW&D Civil Engineers if they do. His work at Whitby Harbour and with the Port of London Authority would have made him an ideal candidate for recruitment to the IW&D

Tony

 

[Memorial Tablet]

Fantastic! Lots to follow up here. I sent an e mail to the ICE some time ago asking where to look for details of deceased members but no reply; I was obviously looking in the wrong place, so thank you for putting me right!

[kenf48]

22 hours ago, Memorial Tablet said:

I conclude that the references to "Temp Major Gordon Cooper" with a record date of 1914 showing his unit as IW&D must be a different man.

 I don't know where you picked up the reference but there is another Gordon Cooper RE.

 I did find an account in the Scotsman dated 7 August 1915 of the funeral of Mr Frank Towers Cooper K.C., last address 41 Drumsheugh Gardens, Edinburgh "the two sons of the deceased Lieutenant Gordon Cooper Royal Engineers (Territorials) and Second Lieutenant Douglas Cooper 3rd Battalion Royal Scots (both in uniform);" This is Lieutenant Charles Gordon Towers Cooper (RE) who was reported seriously wounded in the Scotsman of the 4th October 1916 and joined the TF in 1913.  This may be the cause of some confusion and not your man.

There is an account of a wedding at Todmorden, recorded in the Todmorden and District News 4 September 1914 where under the list of presents were a "Mr and Mrs Gordon Cooper,Athens  - cheque" which seems too much of a coincidence given the above research by @MerchantOldSalt and places him in Greece from 1914 to 1916 which makes a bit more sense of the notation 'service in the UK from Greece' on the Medal Roll.  

Unfortunately doesn't help with his commission unless he was appointed Temporary Lt. on joining the Army due to his civilian qualifications and back dated to February 1917. 

 

 

 

[Memorial Tablet]

Gordon Cooper married Olive Thorp in St Mary's Church Todmorden on 30 April 1914.

Kathleen Thorp married Robert Eastwood on 3 September 1914. Robert was serving with 6th Bn Lancashire Fusiliers. Sadly Kathleen died on 5 July 1917 from inflammation of the heart.

So it looks as if Gordon came back to Todmorden to marry Olive in April or before but went back to Greece shortly thereafter because neither Olive or Gordon appear in Kathleen's wedding photograph and I'm sure that if they had been in the country Olive would have gone back to Todmorden for her sister's wedding. They had a splendidly rustic Honor Guard!

[kenf48]

 

2 minutes ago, Memorial Tablet said:

They had a splendidly rustic Honor Guard!

They certainly did! 

[HughPie]

I've stumbled across this discussion about my grandfather rather late - but would be delighted to make contact and provide further information. There is a reference here to his children Edith and Rob, pictured in Greece. Edith was my mother (born in Todmorden) who died in 2017 aged 100yrs. Gordon Cooper lived his last few years with Edith in Lanchester, Co Durham, until his death in 1985. 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. @Memorial Tablet hasn’t visited the forum for a few months, but my tag should alert them to your post. 

[Matlock1418]

On 23/06/2022 at 19:50, kenf48 said:

Can't seem to bring up his further promotions but then searching the LG is, as far as I'm concerned, the ninth circle of Hell.

You are not far wrong with your description of the LG search facility!  Especially as after getting a commission they typically tended to use only an initial(s)

I found these which might perhaps be him [as they are RE entries] - would likely need possible cross-referencing with his service papers etc.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31582/supplement/12203 Temp Capt to be acting Major [Capt and T/Major are on his MIC]

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31976/supplement/7432 Temp Capt resigning and retaining rank of Capt

M

[Memorial Tablet]

13 hours ago, HughPie said:

I've stumbled across this discussion about my grandfather rather late - but would be delighted to make contact and provide further information. There is a reference here to his children Edith and Rob, pictured in Greece. Edith was my mother (born in Todmorden) who died in 2017 aged 100yrs. Gordon Cooper lived his last few years with Edith in Lanchester, Co Durham, until his death in 1985. 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Memorial Tablet,

Have you researched his officer files at Kew yet?

[Memorial Tablet]

Not yet - it's on my very long to do list!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

16 minutes ago, Memorial Tablet said:

Not yet - it's on my very long to do list!

Well, it's probably more important to read it rather than some other avenues suggested above.

It may contain very little, as lots of these records were weeded over the ensuing years,  but it might contain valuable information. Whatever is in there is hard data about dates and places, maybe just bill receipts, but maybe more, that can form the backbone of his timeline, into which you can then insert new information as it becomes available.

[Memorial Tablet]

On 23/06/2022 at 18:22, kenf48 said:

On 23/06/2022 at 17:16, Memorial Tablet said:

I have found an entry for a "Temp Major Gordon Cooper" with a record date of 1914 showing his unit as IW&D. Correct me if I'm wrong but at that time the IW&D was I believe a Territorial unit and did not come under the control of the Royal Engineers until 1915 when he was probably demoted on becoming a regular?

The Inland Waterways and Docks were not  a Terrritorial Force Unit .

His record at TNA

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1145470

Given his home address it seems likely he was employed at the IWD Richborough

59 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Well, it's probably more important to read it rather than some other avenues suggested above.

It may contain very little, as lots of these records were weeded over the ensuing years,  but it might contain valuable information. Whatever is in there is hard data about dates and places, maybe just bill receipts, but maybe more, that can form the backbone of his timeline, into which you can then insert new information as it becomes available.