family medals: 72551 bmdr w whiteman and 41283 D Whiteman MM

[bomberdier frankish]

Morning all

Been a while since I've posted. i've just been scanning over my family records again and noticed something that i'd like to query.

Both my Great Grandfather and my third great uncle was awarded 1914 stars (mons) which i knew about but other than stating this on the medal index cards is it true if you qualified for a clasp you had to apply for this and there is a roll for these and if so would i be able to buy a 2nd hand one and still fit this to their groups?.

I know it's a long shot but thought i'd ask all the same.

Also i was wondering where exactly would you be able to find records for long service and good conduct medals as i know both my  3rd great uncle and great grandfather spent a significant amount of time in the forces and wondered if they would have been eligible for this award.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

 

Thank you in advance

 

bomberdier frankish

[Allan1892]

The ‘1914 Star’ was awarded to those who served with their units in France and/or Belgium between August 5th 1914, and midnight of November 22/23rd, 1914. This was a bronze star, with the Imperial crown at the top where the ring for the ribbon is fixed. On the face of the star is a pair of crossed swords, point uppermost, behind an oak wreath closed at the bottom with a letter G around a V (for George V). A scroll winds around the swords: it is inscribed with the date ‘Aug.- Nov. 1914.’ The men of the British Expeditionary Force, and the medical and auxiliary services staff were travelling towards Mons in August 1914 which was the site of the first battle of the war and the medal is sometimes called the ‘Mons Star.’

The ribbon for the Star is striped red merging into white and then into blue, reflecting the French flag. A clasp on the ribbon indicates service under fire; where the ribbon only is worn then recipients of the clasp were entitled to wear a silver rosette on the ribbon. This was known as the ‘Clasp and Roses’ (C&R) and had to be applied for and permission formally granted before the clasp or rosette could be worn.

There isn't any notation on his Medal Index Card or his entry in the 1914 Star Medal Rolls -- to me, this would indicate that he didn't apply.

The same for Donald. I take it that you know that Donald was awarded the Military Medal as well.

Edited 22 June , 2022 by Allan1892
To add note for D Whithead

[tankengine888]

41283 Corporal/Bombardier D Whiteman, embarked 6-11-14. No card.
72551 Gunner W Whiteman, embarked 7-11-14. Card states: Bombardier in the Royal Field Artillery [11th Brigade]

Probably already know that, but eh.

[Gunner 87]

5 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

41283 Corporal/Bombardier D Whiteman, embarked 6-11-14. No card.
72551 Gunner W Whiteman, embarked 7-11-14. Card states: Bombardier in the Royal Field Artillery [11th Brigade]

Probably already know that, but eh.

Hi tankengine888. Here are the two MIC's for Donald's 1914 Star, VM, BWM and MM.  Kind regards Gunner.

[tankengine888]

7 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Hi tankengine888. Here are the two MIC's for Donald's 1914 Star, VM, BWM and MM.  Kind regards Gunner.

My bad, I was only looking at D Whiteman. 

Thanks for sending that and correcting*

Tank.

[Gunner 87]

On 22/06/2022 at 13:19, bomberdier frankish said:

Morning all

Been a while since I've posted. i've just been scanning over my family records again and noticed something that i'd like to query.

Both my Great Grandfather and my third great uncle was awarded 1914 stars (mons) which i knew about but other than stating this on the medal index cards is it true if you qualified for a clasp you had to apply for this and there is a roll for these and if so would i be able to buy a 2nd hand one and still fit this to their groups?.

I know it's a long shot but thought i'd ask all the same.

Also i was wondering where exactly would you be able to find records for long service and good conduct medals as i know both my  3rd great uncle and great grandfather spent a significant amount of time in the forces and wondered if they would have been eligible for this award.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

 

Thank you in advance

 

bomberdier frankish

Hi frankish. Donald was also taken POW on the 27/05/18. I have attached the two records held by the ICRC.

[RussT]

On 22/06/2022 at 13:41, Allan1892 said:

The ribbon for the Star is striped red merging into white and then into blue, reflecting the French flag.

Do you know if there is a source for this?

I would like to think the ribbon's colours reflected the flag of the United Kingdom.

And the order of the three colours (R/W/B) aligns better I think with the old British ditty "They'll Always Be an England" with the line "Red, White and Blue; What does it Mean to You" - rather than with the French Tricolour of B/W/R

But if true and the authorities of the time were determined for some peculiar reason for the ribbon's colours to reflect another Nation's flag, then I wonder whether perhaps Belgium's flag would not have been more fitting (a la the "Mons Star"!).

Regards

Russ

[Gunner 87]

The two attached newspaper articles relate to Donald, an ex Police Officer,  being awarded the MM, Driffield Times, 13th April 1918 and subsequently being reported as missing, Hull Daily Mail, 29th June 1918.

I hope they are of some use. Gunner. 

 

 

Edited 25 June , 2022 by Gunner 87

[tankengine888]

4 hours ago, RussT said:

But if true and the authorities of the time were determined for some peculiar reason for the ribbon's colours to reflect another Nation's flag, then I wonder whether perhaps Belgium's flag would not have been more fitting (a la the "Mons Star"!).

Regards

Russ

Hello,

I also want to see evidence on the origins of the ribbon...

But I now wonder why it was called the Mons Star.. obviously due to the Retreat in 1914, but it could've been a Contemptible star or something else.

I just usually take the liberty of assuming that the ribbon is indeed off the French Flag.. but evidence would be nice to see now.

 

Also, for wondering about the situation that Donald went missing, you'd probably have luck with the War Diary of his unit.

Tank.

Edited 25 June , 2022 by tankengine888
Mons star instead of Money

[Gunner 87]

15 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

Hello,

I also want to see evidence on the origins of the ribbon...

But I now wonder why it was called the Money Star.. obviously due to the Retreat in 1914, but it could've been a Contemptible star or something else.

I just usually take the liberty of assuming that the ribbon is indeed off the French Flag.. but evidence would be nice to see now.

 

Also, for wondering about the situation that Donald went missing, you'd probably have luck with the War Diary of his unit.

Tank.

Good shout tankengine. This is an excerpt from the 27th May 1918 when Donald was taken POW. The Battery is in retreat and 18 Officers and 184 OR's are reported missing.

The WD is available at https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352460

 

Edited 25 June , 2022 by Gunner 87

[tankengine888]

17 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Good shout tankengine. This is an excerpt from the 27th May 1918 when Donald was taken POW. The Battery is in retreat and 18 Officers and 184 OR's are reported missing.

The WD is available at https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352460

 

Make you wonder if one of those in the retreat provided a description of what specifically happened or how many were taken POW, Killed or made it back... I'm on phone at the moment so yeah...

Tank.

[Gunner 87]

Hi frankish, I apologise for the plethora of posts but I have now located William in a number of newspaper articles listed as wounded of which I attach The Daily Telegraph, 19th June 1915. Interestingly William then puts an advertisement in The People, 18th July 1915 for a Melodron. This article has him serving with the Meerut Divisional Artillery, Indian Expeditionary Force

 

Edited 25 June , 2022 by Gunner 87

[charlie962]

William Whiteman originally attested 1913 and continued to serve post war, with new army number 1009210.

His Service Record may well be held by MoD Glasgow- or be in the process of transfer to Kew. 

"Royal Artillery attestations 1883-1942 Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FROYALART%2F1009001-1010000%2F00036&parentid=GBM%2FROYALART%2F18828

[Ivor Anderson]

Donald's MM was in the LG on 19 March 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30585/supplement/3472

An April 2008 post on the British Medal Forum states that it was a Corps level award (Authority VIII Corps “A” 439 dated 4.1.1918) :

Under authority delegated by the Field Marshal Commanding-in-
Chief, the corps Commander has awarded THE MILITARY MEDAL to the undernamed N.C.Os for gallantry and devotion to duty in front of YPRES on 15th December 1917:-
No.28570 Sergt. R. Payne, R.G.A, Divisional Trench Mortars
No.41283 Corpl. D. Whiteman, R.F.A -ditto-
His MM card shows he was with the heavy (Z) section of the 8th Division trench mortar battery (TMB) RFA when he earned it.

Edited 27 June , 2022 by Ivor Anderson