Demobilised veterans on "the tramp" at war's end.

[geraint]

I've thought hard as to whether this should be in either Soldiers or in Social forums. It straddles both so Chat it is.

I'm in my late sixties and in my youth lived in quite a few localities in north Wales. During the early 60s in Bangor, I can recall an old man who appeared around the back streets of Plas Llwyd, Caellepa, the old area around the back of Policoffs, The Chronicle and the old bottling yard by the bowling green. (Bangor members will know exactly where I am.) He appeared every six months or so, dressed in shabby black clothing and slept in a ruined outhouse belonging to The Midland Bank! I know this sounds absurd, but this is how it was. Locals said he was a war veteran gone doolally, and had had his nose and half a chin shot off in the war.  Others said his face had been half eaten by a rabid dog in France. Other tramps made appearances every now and than, most "on the knock" begging money, or offering to grind kitchen knifes. Mum usually gave them something.

Late 60s, rural village, and in a ruined outhouse of a closed sawmill we (the lads) came across a tramp's den containing candles, old tins and bottles and straw for a bed (presumably).  Again the occasional tramp came knocking, and mum gave one my dad's supper and sugar and tea leaves in an envelope. These were men in their late sixties - certainly not my dad's generation who served in WW2. Later, in Ruthin, old men  that I can now name, and prove their  Great War provenance. Freddie Fox living in the local dump, Richard Dunn ex SWB and living in various local quarries and chicken coops. There are so any more - all gone today. I've often thought about their experiences - today it would be Post Traumatic Stress, and Help for Heroes and  RBL and social care would take care of them.

Having re-read this opening I feel slightly idiotic - but hey! What the hell! They deserve a remembrances. Any thoughts?

[JMB1943]

Geraint,

Not at all idiotic, and yes they do deserve to be remembered.

Too many men came home totally shattered, to what was supposed to have been a land fit for heroes.

Regards,

JMB

Edited 19 June , 2022 by JMB1943
typo

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Geraint,

At the same time, I knew of two tramps who did the rounds, one had his earthly possessions in an old pram. One was Washi Bach, the other John Price. Washi Bach was suposed to have been a Great War veteran, and I read somewhere he might have spent his last few weeks in Valley Cottage Hospital in Anglesey. 

John Price was gruff but harmless with an enormous set of whiskers. He sometimes knocked at our house for " a cup of tea and a crust of bread ".

My father did a lot of mileage around Anglesey with his work and sometimes would occasionally give JP a lift.

One day, my dad stopped and JP got in the car. 

" 'Dwi'm wedi'ch gweld chi o gwmpas ers amser John Price. Lle 'da chi 'di bod?" [I haven't seen you around for a while John Price, where have you been?]

"I ffwr 'na". [ Away]

"O, yn lle dudwch?"  [Oh, where exactly?]

"Lerpwl" [Liverpool]

"Ewadd annwl, be oddach chi'n neud yn fanno?" [Blimey, what were you doing there?]

"Yn carchar". [In jail]

"Be gythrol neuthoch chi i gael ych gyrru i fanno?" [What did you do to end up in there?]

"Dim. On i'n cerddad drw'r hen sglyfath o hen dwll yna, a dyma basdad plisman yn dwad, a 'nghartio fi'n syth off i Walton" [Nothing. I was just walking down that dirty old hole (=Mersey Tunnel) when this b*****d policeman arrested me and sent me to Walton"

Poor guy.

Edited 20 June , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Ron Clifton]

One of the stories I have come across related to a Private John Ireland, who could not cope with postwar life, and was put into an asylum in 1924. He spent the rest of his life in mental institutions until his death in 2001 - 77 years later.

These days the situation is rather better, but there are still brave young men whose lives have been shattered by PTSD. Not all the casualties of war are commemorated on CWGC gravestones and memorials.

Ron

Edited 20 June , 2022 by Ron Clifton

[kenf48]

On 20/06/2022 at 11:33, Ron Clifton said:

One of the stories I have come across related to a Private John Ireland, who could not cope with postwar life, and was put into an asylum in 1924. He spent the rest of his life in mental institutions until his death in 2001 - 77 years later.

The OH records that in February 1921 65,000 men were in receipt of war pensions due to 'neuresthania' in January 1922 this figure had decreased to 50,000.

That said the WO Committee on Shellshock (1922) considered 'The Influence of War Stress and Shellshock on the Production of Insanity' and witnesses provided scant evidence that 'the stress of war caused insanity in the stable man'.  In their report they wrote, "From the evidence before the Committee they are of the opinion there is no justification for the popular belief that "shellshock" was a direct cause of insanity, or that the service patients still in asylums were originally cases of "shellshock" who have since become insane."  They went on to say, "As regards the higher degree of mental defectives, it was in evidence that many had been enlisted and somehad been trained into efficient soldiers. On the other hand, there was a large group of this type of man, of whom some rapidly broke down and others failed at every class of duty except the most menial occupations in the back area."

One witness, a Dr L.C. Bruce stated he had seen cases of insanity brought on by the stress of war but these proved to be transitory.  The majority of cases from the Western Front were due to exhaustion.  He went on to say the fifteen service patients at present in his hospital were all cases of dementia praecox (schizophrenia;mental paranoia).  Dr Bruce told the Committtee that none of these cases (of service patients) had been sent to him as "neurasthenic".

The full report may be downloaded from the Wellcome Foundation https://wellcomecollection.org/works/e9jzreay

As for Lloyd George's 'home fit for heroes' I recently posted in another thread this extract from the 1921 Census showing the consequences for my grandfather and his brothers, one of whom is listed as an 'invalided pensioner'. He eventually committed suicide in a mental asylum in 1950 after his sister, who had cared for him since 1917 and his repatriation with 'neurasthenia' after Mametz Wood, died.

The Bedwas Navigtion Colliery had fuelled the Royal Navy and the Merchant Fleets throughout the war but now all the men who had volunteered for the Army in 1914, and their father were out of work.  My grandfather did not go 'on the tramp' but became an itinerant worker in the steel industry cleaning the blast furnaces, an occupation which contributed to his death three years before his brother committed suicide.

 

[ilkley remembers]

Interesting  post. Hardly understood these days when access to welfare and benefits is well understood, but 100 years ago tramps were an everyday sight across Britain with literally hundreds of thousands of men women and children taking to the roads. The statistics were well recorded because various Acts of Parliament compelled local Poor Law Unions and associated Boards of Guardians and Vagrancy Committees to provide welfare assistance to anyone who claimed to need it on a casual basis. This would include food, washing facilities and access to a bed on a temporary basis.

 

In the years following 1918 it was by noted by Unions across the country that levels of vagrancy substantially increased and that a significant number were ex-soldiers. At the time this was ascribed to inadequate provision of employment opportunities and particularly the refusal of government to address the issue of disability in the workplace. Added to this was the low rates of  disability pensions and the unpredictable period over which it would be awarded. Many ex-servicemen  who were suffering from long term mental trauma were extremely reluctant to engage with the medical profession because of the fear of the asylum system not only because of its stigma but because admission removed the right to a pension.

 

I suppose in a modern age when access to the safety net of a hard won welfare system is seen as a right, the nature of 1920s social care is difficult to understand  

Edited 24 June , 2022 by ilkley remembers

[Steviebullsatatter]

On 18/06/2022 at 21:09, geraint said:

I've thought hard as to whether this should be in either Soldiers or in Social forums. It straddles both so Chat it is.

I'm in my late sixties and in my youth lived in quite a few localities in north Wales. During the early 60s in Bangor, I can recall an old man who appeared around the back streets of Plas Llwyd, Caellepa, the old area around the back of Policoffs, The Chronicle and the old bottling yard by the bowling green. (Bangor members will know exactly where I am.) He appeared every six months or so, dressed in shabby black clothing and slept in a ruined outhouse belonging to The Midland Bank! I know this sounds absurd, but this is how it was. Locals said he was a war veteran gone doolally, and had had his nose and half a chin shot off in the war.  Others said his face had been half eaten by a rabid dog in France. Other tramps made appearances every now and than, most "on the knock" begging money, or offering to grind kitchen knifes. Mum usually gave them something.

Late 60s, rural village, and in a ruined outhouse of a closed sawmill we (the lads) came across a tramp's den containing candles, old tins and bottles and straw for a bed (presumably).  Again the occasional tramp came knocking, and mum gave one my dad's supper and sugar and tea leaves in an envelope. These were men in their late sixties - certainly not my dad's generation who served in WW2. Later, in Ruthin, old men  that I can now name, and prove their  Great War provenance. Freddie Fox living in the local dump, Richard Dunn ex SWB and living in various local quarries and chicken coops. There are so any more - all gone today. I've often thought about their experiences - today it would be Post Traumatic Stress, and Help for Heroes and  RBL and social care would take care of them.

Having re-read this opening I feel slightly idiotic - but hey! What the hell! They deserve a remembrances. Any thoughts?

Geraint,

This is something that  I have puzzled for a long time..'streets of London ' by Ralph  mctell always felt like the homeless were ww1 soldiers and the like

[Steviebullsatatter]

20 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The OH records that in February 1921 65,000 men were in receipt of war pensions due to 'neuresthania' in January 1922 this figure had decreased to 50,000.

That said the WO Committee on Shellshock (1922) considered 'The Influence of War Stress and Shellshock on the Production of Insanity' and witnesses provided scant evidence that 'the stress of war caused insanity in the stable man'.  In their report they wrote, "From the evidence before the Committee they are of the opinion there is no justification for the popular belief that "shellshock" was a direct cause of insanity, or that the service patients still in asylums were originally cases of "shellshock" who have since become insane."  They went on to say, "As regards the higher degree of mental defectives, it was in evidence that many had been enlisted and somehad been trained into efficient soldiers. On the other hand, there was a large group of this type of man, of whom some rapidly broke down and others failed at every class of duty except the most menial occupations in the back area."

One witness, a Dr L.C. Bruce stated he had seen cases of insanity brought on by the stress of war but these proved to be transitory.  The majority of cases from the Western Front were due to exhaustion.  He went on to say the fifteen service patients at present in his hospital were all cases of dementia praecox (schizophrenia;mental paranoia).  Dr Bruce told the Committtee that none of these cases (of service patients) had been sent to him as "neurasthenic".

The full report may be downloaded from the Wellcome Foundation https://wellcomecollection.org/works/e9jzreay

As for Lloyd George's 'home fit for heroes' I recently posted in another thread this extract from the 1921 Census showing the consequences for my grandfather and his brothers, one of whom is listed as an 'invalided pensioner'. He eventually committed suicide in a mental asylum in 1950 after his sister, who had cared for him since 1917 and his repatriation with 'neurasthenia' after Mametz Wood, died.

The Bedwas Navigtion Colliery had fuelled the Royal Navy and the Merchant Fleets throughout the war but now all the men who had volunteered for the Army in 1914, and their father were out of work.  My grandfather did not go 'on the tramp' but became an itinerant worker in the steel industry cleaning the blast furnaces, an occupation which contributed to his death three years before his brother committed suicide.

 

ken,

Would be extremely sad if just stories but sadly many many men lived such lives as these.Just how they were meant to return to a normal existence having left the new family of the unit they were in and deal with the trauma virtually alone is another layer of pain that they didn't need. 

[GWF1967]

On 18/06/2022 at 21:09, geraint said:

 

Having re-read this opening I feel slightly idiotic - but hey! What the hell! They deserve a remembrances. Any thoughts?

My parents moved to rural Essex in 1970 and as a child I remember our hay barn having regular visitors (they were always referred to as such), including veterans of both conflicts. I never remember more than one gent staying at any one time.
 My only negative memory was handing supper to one very aged chap who showed his gratitude by exclaiming “ huh - fish and chips again “. 
 

[geraint]

Great comments folks - many thanks. GWF reminds me of a similar comment when my mum gave one caller sixpence to which he morosely replied "Huhhh! I can get a pack of five wuth that." Woodbines I believe. The Poor Laws still remained until 1947, when the brave new world of the Welfare State began. Tramps still visited and evaded the Poorhouses and were subject to their intense discipline. The invalided poor of the Ruthin Workhouse - many of the men with WW1 connections, were escorted by staff to a local pub between 6.00am and supper at 7.00.

A very interesting story did its rounds in the early 70s. When the Workhouse closed the Local Authority were responsible for providing help and accomodation to the poor, including the inmates who transferred from the now closed union workhouses to the new Local Authority homes. In Ruthin the workhouse closed in 1968 and Awelon, the new Denbighshire Council Home was built. Tramps living "wild" were rounded up by the local police and forced into Awelon as well as the veterans living in the workhouse. The building then demolished in 1974 and all records burnt!!!! Terrible - dating back to the 1835 New Poor Laws as well as stuff preceeding that!!! As inmates grew older and died, the story arose amongst thee veterans that those who died were victims of The Blue Needle campaign - that the authorities were deliberately killing off the trouble making veterans. Any similar stories in your areas folks?

Edited 27 June , 2022 by geraint

[geraint]

Excellent info Alan. The Poor Laws in their last days are somewhat overlooked, though narratively, listening to oral descriptions by younger lads in their teens during the 30s-70s the coercive victorian spirit of the places continued  into the mid-sixties. 

I think that most men going on the tramp were not lunatics or severely shell-shocked. I think they enjoyed the shell-hole, frontier spirit, no-more sergeant majors type life. They may or not have had family, but the tramping life suited them better.

Dai -

Washi Bach is a name that I can recall as a threat. "Watch it or Washi Bach will get you." I wonder if he was the one with those horrible facial injuries in Bangor?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

42 minutes ago, geraint said:

Watch it or Washi Bach will get you." I wonder if he was the one with those horrible facial injuries in Bangor?

I remember him,  his name and his aura, but couldn't at all give a description of his facial features.

[Another John Price anecdote:

He turns up at an Anglesey farmhouse where the prim and proper lady of the house graciously offers him a meal which he wolfs down.

"'Da chi'sho  mwy John Price?                                                       [Do you want more John Price?]

Oes.                                                                                                [Yes]

Oes be?  medda hi gan aros am y geiriau 'os gwelwch yn dda'.  [Yes, what? -she asks pointedly, awaiting the magic  word                                                                                                                                                                                           'Please']

Oes....(sychu'i drwyn ar lawes ei got).                                            [Yes......(sniffs and wipes nose on coat sleeve)]

....os os 'na beth!                                                                             [......if there is any left! ]

Edited 28 June , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I Australia many post war soldiers traveled all over the country, there are many accounts of these men.

Why did they travel is many and veried.

No dought the war had some cause, but also the times, ei the lack of jobs and the main cause during the 20'sand early 30's (The depression).

The dis-elusioned men in a world they fought for, that appeared didn't want them 

Stories of men moving from Qld to Sth Aussie or like my Grand father who had a number of jobs until he joined the trams/buses in Perth, who took many old solders in the 30's

They just went where the work was, until that ran out, then they moved, my Grand mother told us how she had to lug four kids around the out back from town to town.

S.B

Edited 28 June , 2022 by stevenbecker

[geraint]

Isn't that what "Waltzing Matilda" means? I'm sure that the term stands for men going on the tramp- either with or without work. 200 years ago Welsh agricultural  labourers "went on the tramp" in England scything hay, mowing grasses and reaping corn. So going on the tramp was a respectable part of the economy when done in season. I did a poor law study on the inventories and costs accounted by the local parish constables in the parishes of Wrexham Abbot and Wrexham Regis for the period 1815-17. Most of the vagrants were military women and children catching up with the menfolk on demob from the Napoleonic War. Poole in Dorset seemed to be a popular destination. Demobed men going home were also very numerous. From what I could gather all were well treated by the local constables (who often had a horrible financial reputation towards their paupers.)

The men from the First World War were, it seems to me, treated far more poorly.

Any more "blue needle" recollections? That veterans were deliberately euthanized because they were thought of as social drain on the local council?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

17 minutes ago, geraint said:

Isn't that what "Waltzing Matilda" means?

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/214619-who-is-this/?do=findComment&comment=2157723

 

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Yes that was the main meaning, but the poem was written before the Boer War.

I think during the shearers strike of the early 1890's

In Australia during the 18th century and 19th century there was a lot of this for the same reasons.

Chasing work was the main cause and to travel vast distances was not unusual

Its only now days is this not done that often by most of us.

S.B

[Steviebullsatatter]

On 28/06/2022 at 11:54, ALAN MCMAHON said:

   The tramp had been a familiar figure  in Victorian and Edwardian UK- then, as now,  many, many tramps were ex-soldiers -although now we recognize that PTSD and the lack of a structured lifestyle have their consequences in making men homeless and "on the tramp".  The Great War merely magnified the problem.  Of course, the old practice that  discharged veterans could keep their army greatcoats added to the  anti-army prejudice common in that society-  just remember the line from  Kipling's "Tommy"-"We serve no redcoats here".  And it is hard to find a photograph of a Victorian or pre-war tramp without a thick greatcoat of some sort.  So there is quite a long historical tradition of associating the tramp  with the army veteran- and the PTSD/structured lifestyle debate on treatment of veterans by society has been around a long, long time. There are newspaper reports buried away on BNA of   Crimea and Mutiny veterans  crossing with the Poor Laws or the Magistrates so the PTSD causation is not new.  

      There is still a tale to tell of how these veterans were helped/not helped, particularly in the inter-war years. There must be materials buried away in the surviving records of  Regimental and Old Comrades associations on help being sought or given  but I am not aware of anything significant published about this.  A doctorate for a tyro academic out there just waiting.

    Although not a tramp as such, the best depiction of the problem of the damaged veteran I can recall is  the first episode  of that excellent TV series of the Seventies-"When the Boat Comes In".  The first episode ( "A Land Fit for Heroes and Idiots")  features the lead character, Jack Ford an ex-sergeant of the Durham Light Infantry dealing with one of his former men traumatised by shell-shock and being buried alive on the Somme. Whoever the scriptwriters were, their historical background work was spot-on.   

Alan

I watched the first episode Thursday evening. I remember the music to the programme but was only 6 when it aired so never seen it. 

To think that it was only 50 years since the great war ended is probably why the memories required to make such a programme were very believable .

I was only talking about the great war films, if any new ones are produced, the other day and said that it would be all touchy feely as that is quickly becoming the new normal. 

I'm glad you posted the comment regarding 'when the boat  comes in as it was an enjoyable watch.

 

[Swann RAnger]

Back in the dim distant passed  I seem to remember a quote stating approx 40,000 WW1 veterans were in asylums at the outbreak of WW2, Unfortunately can’t locate the said quote, but willing to be corrected?

 

thanks

[Mk VII]

You could only stay in the Casual Ward of the union for one night, and you could not return for another fourteen (I think - Orwell in 'Down and Out in Paris and London' talks about it) days so men went on a circular tramp calling in at the various unions as often as allowed and hoping to pick up casual work along the way, as well agricultural labouring in season.