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Remembered Today:

George Robert Jones dob ~1887 Hoxton Middlesex


richardanthony

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Trying to research George Robert Jones. George Robert Jones married Elizabeth Ives in St Pauls Church, Clerkenwell on July 22 1906. George was 19, a bachelor and a market porter. His father was also George Robert Jones and a market porter. Elizabeth was a spinster aged 19. Her father was Henry Ives [deceased] and a horse keeper. Jane Coombes and Florence Brown were witnesses. The couple both lived at 69 Lever Street St Lukes Islington. They are still living at 69 Lever Street in 1911. He is a Carman working as a Post Office contractor. I can't find him after that and have made the assumption he was killed during the First World War but i cannot find any local deaths or war deaths or enlistments that agree. Elizabeth married again in 1921. Bit of a needle in a haystack.

Hoping the genius people on here can help again.

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I think @ALAN MCMAHON has pretty much covered it off, so just a few lesser angles to try if the above doesn't turn up anything useful.

There have been several attempts on the form to document the nature of his employment - he intially looks like he recorded himself as an employee rather than working on his own account which you might expect if he was a contractor.

1329246055_GeorgeJones1911_CensusofEandWsourcedGenesReunitedoccupationcrop.jpg.7b5f9d4af2ba212fb378b6a56fa40857.jpg

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

I suspect he got a follow up visit to clarify, as "Post Office Contractor" looks like it could be in a different hand.

Should it turn out that he was a Post Office employee then there are records that might exist for him as a civil servant. If not there is a small chance he might pop up in the records of the Post Office Museum.

Further on the genealogy side you have the children. On the 1911 Census side the couple state the union has produced three children, all of whom have unfortunately died. The census return itself, and the enumerators' sheet makes no mention of Islington. The address is showns as being in St. Lukes, and falls under the Holborn Civil Registration District for recording Births, Marriages and Deaths.

Checking out children registered in the Holborn District with surname Jones, mothers maiden name Ives brings up 7 matches, all falling between 1908 and 1917.

The ones prior to the Census are George, (Q3 1908), Martha, (Q3 1909) and William, (Q1 1911).
After the census comes Elizabeth, (Q3 1912), Elizabeth, (Q4 1913), George, (Q1 1915) and Dorothy Lillian, (Q2 1917).

No in your face reason to rule any of them out - none registered in adjacent quarters for example, so all could potentially be children of the same parents. Recycling of names following the death of a child in this era is very common, particularly when they are family forenames.

If they are children of George Robert and Elizabeth, then fathers' occupation on the birth certificate for George in 1915 and Dorothy Lillian, 1917, could be a possible route to see whether he was serving, and indeed whether he was still alive in the case of Dorothy Lillian. And assuming he was the biological father of Dorothy Lillian, that would mean he was alive at least as late as the summer of 1916 and possibly even a little bit later. That would narrow down the period that needs to be checked for his death.

And if the children died during this period, then there is even a possibility George Robert would be mentioned on their death certificate - as the person reporting their death for example. It would also be likely to give a home address, either for the deceased or the informant, which may help when it comes to checking the electoral register from 1918 onwards and the 1921 Census of England & Wales.

Possibles death registrations in the Holborn Civil Registration District.
Elizabeth, aged under 1, Q3 1912
Elizabeth, aged under 1, Q4 1913
George, aged under 1, Q1 1915
None for Dorothy Lillian.

If Elizabeth remarried in 1921 then likely there are only surviving Ministry of Pension cards if any of the children were still alive, so may be worthwhile doing searches based on their names.

Hope that helps,
Peter

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2 hours ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

b)  If his wife remarried in 1921, then if he was a war  casualty then there may well be a pension record card which can be seen through Fold 3 or via WFA.  If there is no pension card and the remarriage date is correct, then odds are against a war casualty.

Can't see a George Robert Jones with an Elizabeth when I searched the pension cards on Fold3

EDIT: Likewise, nothing comes up when looking for children's names.

Edited by Allan1892
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I too have looked WFA/Fold4 pension cards looking at his, wife's and possible childrens' names, places etc. and didn't come up with a particularly good hit.

However one pension card that caught my eye was:

George Robert JONES112 Bonnels Road, Edmonton

Labour Corps 164121 Ex Middlesex Regt. Discharged 16-4-19 with a disability pension of 5/6 pw from 17-4-19 to 4-5-19

Labour Corps 164121 reveals a MIC/Discharge card served 10-12-15 to 16-4-19 no medals but a Silver War Badge listing - perhaps worth looking at the SWB list as I thnk age on discharge was recorded - and of course looking out for a SR etc.

M

40 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

"George Jones"- listing him as being killed on 10th April 1918 serving with 1/5 Northumberland Fusiliers

CWGC entry https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/871956/george-jones - Regtl no 60086

A pension card at WFA/Fold3 for George JONES, 60086, NF, shows him with an alternative name of George Edward TRENT = ???

Edit: looking at pension cards under TRENT, 60086 gives his mother as Mrs Elizabeth Ann TRENT, 64 Arlington Rd, Camden Town, NW1

Under JONES, 60086 also a MIC with additional details of L/13017, Middlesex Regt, and 62085, NF - also shows Deserted 9-8-17 [struckthrough on MIC] but medals appear to have later been restored = 14 Star, BWM & VM

M

Edited by Matlock1418
edits - correction of end date for Chelsea pension
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18 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

And-the unusual way round-not Middx Regiment then transferred to Labour Corps but Middx first, with "attachment"

George Robert JONESLabour Corps 164121 Ex Middlesex Regt

Could potentially be that other way round - as I confess to having interpreted the "Ex" rather than read it clearly on both PIC and MIC and the Chelsea Hospital pension number reference is unknown to me = Discharged due to Sickness under KR 392 xvi.

Edit: Starling and Lee's excellent history of the LC "No Labour, No Battle" gives that 164121 number [Up to 170140] an approx. date of joining as April/May 1917

M

Edited by Matlock1418
edit
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37 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Labour Corps 164121 reveals a MIC/Discharge card served 10-12-15 to 16-4-19 no medals but a Silver War Badge listing - perhaps worth looking at the SWB list as I thnk age on discharge was recorded

SWB showing Jones attached(image courtesy of Ancestry)

Jones_SWB.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

SWB showing Jones

Certainly looks like Ex Middx. - finding a SR or a pseudo-SR/Pension record would certainly/likely help us out, one way ir the other.

M

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41 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

and of course looking out for a SR etc

Can't find an SR under 164121 (pity no service number in relation to Middlesex Reg)

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Trying to find information on a George Robert Jones.

George Robert Jones married Elizabeth Ives in St Pauls Church, Clerkenwell on July 22 1906. George was 19, a bachelor and a market porter. His father was also George Robert Jones and a market porter. Elizabeth was a spinster aged 19.   The couple both lived at 69 Lever Street. [Clerkenwell, Islington]

They are still living at 69 Lever Street in 1911. He is a Carman working as a Post Office contractor and she is a capsule colourist working at Betts Factory. He was born in Hoxton and she was born in St Lukes. 

I found a parish record for a child born in 1917 which gives the 69  Lever Street and states George the father is a soldier. After that we cannot trace him so we assumed he had died in the Great War. His wife remarries later. I cant find his birth.

I can only find one possible soldier from that area [Islington]

PRIVATE GEORGE JONES Service Number: 60086 Northumberland Fusiliers 1st/5th Bn. Date of Death Died 10 April 1918

I cant find any service records to prove the connection to Elizabeth or his father George daughter Dorothy or the address 69 Chestnut Grove Lever Street  Can ayone help? 

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  • Admin

Duplicate threads merged. 

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59 minutes ago, richardanthony said:

PRIVATE GEORGE JONES Service Number: 60086 Northumberland Fusiliers 1st/5th Bn. Date of Death Died 10 April 1918

See previous post: Pension cards at WFA/Fold3 appear to have his true name as George Edward TRENT - no Robert

and alias as George JONES, 60086, 1/5th NF

Mother given as Mrs Elizabeth Ann TRENT, 64 Arlington Rd, Camden Town, NW1 - seemingly no sign of a widow for him.

M

Edited by Matlock1418
no robert
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13 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

And a suitable child to match this man:

image.png.eca13e0031ebdc0a7e8f5464a4bc4d13.png

I've been doing exactly the same searches at FreeBMD & GRO!!

As suggested before - all seems wrong for George Robert JONES

Especially for one aged 19 in 1906

M

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Islington council was not created until 1963 I think. St Lukes is in Clerkenwell. so Market porters suggests Spitalfields Market.  

Edited by johnboy
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Areas of London back then can be confusing. What was called one name in say 1914 could be called by another 10 years later surrounding counties. the same.

You could be right about market porters. I have always thought Market Porters referred to Wholesale Markets and not Public Street Markets.

I have seen Islingtons online memorial for those who died WW1 and asked them to make many corrections. Whoever compiled it got confused with London regiment and Royal Fusiliers {city of London} 

I have traced members of my family living in Clerkenwell back to 1840  .I think I could go back further but feel I have no need to

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8 hours ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

Ah, but yours is the great mind that thinks alike- I am merely the fool that follows blindly!!

You flatter me and do yourself a great injustice - I think it is most likely the other way round!

And here's the evidence ...

8 hours ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

image.png.13fe98feb4e2c7e1c8b001c5156cf640.png

To perhaps assist with separation GRO have:

JONES, GEORGE  ROBERT  Mother's maiden name SKINNER   GRO Reference: 1887  S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN  Volume 01C  Page 151

JONES, GEORGE  ROBERT BERTIE Mother's maiden name SKIDMORE   GRO Reference: 1887  S Quarter in ISLINGTON  Volume 01B  Page 390

Since well off my patch I'll let you and @johnboy continue your explorations of old London town.

M

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I couldnt find my original query didnt think it had been posted so reposted, thanks for merging.

Could not follow the trent jones bit.

I managed to find a George Jones, birth place Hoxton. Residence Lever Street, EC, Death Date 5/12/17 France and Flanders, Enlisted Whitehall, Rank Private, Regiment London Regiment Battalion 19th (County) (St Pancras) Regiment Number 612868 Died of Wounds Western European Theatre.

I can’t find his service papers but the Lever Street address is too much of a coincidence. Can anyone direct me to his service papers to get the full address etc

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The reference for this came from Ancestry: UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919 

 

He was married when living at 69 lever street and was at the 1911 census at this address with his wife Elizabeth Ives. We have this as correct from family records. All the children died at birth according to GRO apart from last one Dorothy Lilian and she was baptised to the couple giving 69 Lever Street and occupation soldier. Cant find her so far.

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 Dorothy Lilian and she was baptised to the couple giving 69 Lever Street and occupation soldier. Cant find her so far.

 

 

When was she born baptazed?

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then he was home, not overseas Oct 1916.

I have looked for under soldierseffects register. No luck. I think the child if still alive would have been entitled to some sort of payment, as would the wife..

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36 minutes ago, johnboy said:

then he was home, not overseas Oct 1916.

Somebody was.

M

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Managed to find an army pension on ancestry for george jones and for his service number and the limited detail given gives lever street, elizabeth and two children and their dates of birth which on checking parish records do agree. Unfortunately the record seems to be held by fold3 and i dont have a sub for that. Was hoping that might confirm his date of birth and fathers details.

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1 minute ago, richardanthony said:

Managed to find an army pension on ancestry for george jones and for his service number

Under what number?

M

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George JONES, 612868, 19th London

WFA/Fold3 have a pension index card

5.12.17, Died of Wounds rec'd in Action, Gas shell.

Widow: Elizabeth, b. 6.1.86 65 Lever St, St Lukes EC1

Children: Alfred George b 11.5.16 and Dorethy Lilian, b 9.6.17

No date of birth for him or his father's details.

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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Searched under death date 1/12/1917 and service number 612868 without entering a name using card catalogue for "ww1 army pension ledgers and index cards"

 

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