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Remembered Today:

2nd York & Lancaster


Tim S

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Hi

First, I would like to apologise for going outside of the parameters of 1914 to 1918. I know it is a shot in the dark with getting an answer to my two questions and I fully understand if the Forum does not want to, or can not answer the questions.

However, I thought I'd post them to see if I get any information.

My Grand Uncle (Joseph De Silva Stewart, also known as Joseph Stewart in some Newspaper articles - born 1887, Died 1955) was in the 2nd York & Lancaster's from the early 1900s to sometime after the 1st WW and into the 1920s.

One of my relatives has his medals.

I know he was in The 2nd York & Lancaster's in 1906 and 1915 because I have copy's of both his Court Martials for those years, which stated he was in the 2nd York & Lancaster's. Plus his WW1 medals stating Y&L on the sides. 

One of his medals is the North Western Frontier 1908 (NWF).

1. Does anyone know if the North Western Frontier 1908 medal should have the soldier's name, Regiment and rank stamped on the side, like the WW1 medals (as there is nothing on the side of my Grand Uncle's NWF 1908 medal).

2. Does anyone know if the 2nd York & Lancaster's were out in Northern India in 1908 (now Pakistan), as I can't find any information saying they were.

I hope someone is able to answer my questions.

Regards

Tim  

 

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Tim,

I take it you are referring to the Indian General Service Medal with clasp North West Frontier 1908? If so then yes they were issued with the recipients detail impressed around the rim.

I can find no record of him on the medal roll for the IGSM.

It looks as though the medal was not officially awarded.

Regards Mutley

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Thanks for your very quick reply Mutley.

I think it is the Indian Service Medal with North Western Frontier 1908 Clasp (picture attached with his other medals that I was sent by my relative).

What does that mean 'not officially awarded'. Does that mean he wasn't there?

Can you tell me please how I can access the medal IGSM roll.

Thanks

Tim 

1856343474_JosephDeSilvaStewarts(Junior)Medals.jpg.4f7c6066db593a7b5d32797451aff1bb.jpg

 

 

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Wikipedia page for the relevant version of the Indian General service Medal to which the clasp "North West Frontier 1908" should be attached - just to make sure we are talking about the same medal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_General_Service_Medal_(1909)

33 minutes ago, Tim S said:

Does anyone know if the 2nd York & Lancaster's were out in Northern India in 1908 (now Pakistan), as I can't find any information saying they were.

Hart's Annual Army List, 1908 edition, ("correct to the end of December 1907), shows the 1st Battalion at Quetta and the 2nd Battalion at York.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100879338

There was no change on the 1909 edition. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100684650

Of course a 2nd Battalion man may have been transferred out to the 1st Battalion and then subsequently returned. I can see that the 1911 Census of England & Wales has a 25 year old Private Joseph Stewart, born Gosport, who was recorded in barracks with the 1st Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment at Hyderabad, Sind. His army trade is shown as Cook. As the birth of you Great Uncle looks like it was registered in the Alverstoke District of Hampshire, I suspect they are probably the same man.

Cheers,
Peter

 

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35 minutes ago, Tim S said:

Thanks for your very quick reply Mutley.

I think it is the Indian Service Medal with North Western Frontier 1908 Clasp (picture attached with his other medals that I was sent by my relative).

What does that mean 'not officially awarded'. Does that mean he wasn't there?

Can you tell me please how I can access the medal IGSM roll.

Thanks

Tim 

1856343474_JosephDeSilvaStewarts(Junior)Medals.jpg.4f7c6066db593a7b5d32797451aff1bb.jpg

 

 

Tim,

If the medal is unnamed it suggests that it is not a medal which was awarded officially. It may be a replacement medal because the original official medal was lost, equally it may be that he wasn’t awarded it, perhaps he didn’t meet the award criteria, but he felt that he should have one and added it on himself. As he served in the Second World War, it is likely that his service records have survived. You can request a copy from  the MoD https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records this should show where he served etc and should also list medals awarded to him.

There is another issue with the group of medals you have shown, in that it is missing the Army Long Service and Good Conduct medal which he was awarded in 24/07/1926. His Medal Index Card for WW1 shows him as a 8078 Private in 2 York & Lancs, then a Pte in the Labour Corps as 227592, then 53426 Cpl York & Lancs and then finally 4737151 Sgt York & Lancs.

Mutley

Edited by mutley
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55 minutes ago, mutley said:

His Medal Index Card for WW1 shows him as a 8078 Private in 2 York & Lancs,

Paul Nixon's Army Service number site shows the Regular Army Battalions of the York & Lancaster Regiment as issuing regimental service number 8078 at some point between the 21st March 1904, (7702) and the 5th January 1905, (8217). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/york-and-lancaster-regiment-1st-and-2nd.html

Cheers,
Peter

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There is mention early in the thread of court’s martial.  It’s likely that he forfeited the NWF medal, as was a common penalty at the time.  He would certainly forfeit any long service and good conduct medal for the same reason (service must be entirely without regimental level disciplinary sanction).  My guess is that he harboured some degree of resentment over losing his India medal and later obtained a replacement, which he would have had to purchase.  It was usual for individually purchased replacements to come without personal details inscribed.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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8 hours ago, PRC said:

Paul Nixon's Army Service number site shows the Regular Army Battalions of the York & Lancaster Regiment as issuing regimental service number 8078 at some point between the 21st March 1904, (7702) and the 5th January 1905, (8217). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/york-and-lancaster-regiment-1st-and-2nd.html
 

Enlistment in the Regulars at that time were either 12 years, (short), or 21 years to earn a pension. The 12 year enlistments were split into a period in the “colours”, (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline, receiving full bed, board and pay) and a period in the reserves, (i.e. back in civvy street, subject to military discipline only when attending refresher training, receiving half-pay but liable for re-call in the event of a national emergency such as war). Once  man had started serving he could ask to increase his time in the colours and do less in the reserves. The 21 year enlistment was all in the colours.

Having a quick check of men whose service came to an end as a result of discharge \ death before the Great War, it’s possible to narrow down the date of enlistment a little bit.

8064 Charles Johnson signed up for a short enlistment of 9 years in the colours and 3 in the reserves at Stratford, (London), on the 25th October 1904. He reported to the Depot at Pontefract on the 28th. Sent to Prison twice in the first two months of his service, he was dishonourably discharged in January 1905.

8066 John Turner signed up for a short enlistment of 9 years in the colours and 3 in the reserves at Nottingham on the 26th October 1904. He reported to the Depot at Pontefract on the 27th. After completing his initial training he was posted to the 2nd Battalion on the 8th May 1905. On the 19th October 1906 he was transferred to the 1st Battalion and sailed for India. He would subsequently be invalided home at the end of 1909. He is not shown as entitled to the Indian General Service Medal, only the Queens South Africa Medal for a previous stint with the Imperial Yeomanry in the Boer War.

8083 James Samuels  signed up for a short enlistment of 3 years with the colours and 9 in the reserves at Pontypool on the 3rd November 1904. He reported to the Depot at Pontefract on the 5th. He was discharged medically unfit in May 1905.

8084 Alfred Murray signed up for a short enlistment of 9 years in the colours and 3 in the reserves at London on the 3rd November 1904. He reported to the Depot at Pontefract on the 4th.  Sent to Prison twice in the first few months of his service, he was dishonourably discharged in April 1905.

While Joseph Stewart may have enlisted for 21 years, and had his copybook to promotion blotted by his initial court-martial, it should be taken into consideration that he may have been a 12 year man. Enlisting at the very end of October or the opening days of November 1904, if like Johnson, Turner and Murray he signed up on a 9 and 3 split, he would not have transferred to the reserves until 1913. When the Reserve was mobilised on the 5th August 1914 he would have reported to the 2nd Battalion, as the 1st was still in India. As someone who had seen 9 years service, and that ended less than a year earlier, he would have been a prime candidate to help bring the 2nd Battalion up to full campaigning strength – peactime home service battalions like the 2nd were usually kept at 2/3rds strength to enable the overseas units to be full strength.

His 12 years would have been up in 1916, but as Britain was at war his terms of enlistment allowed the Army to retain him for up to a further 12 months. However before either of those became an issue, the government had passed the Military Service Act of 1916. As well as introducing conscription it did away with the distinctions between Regular, Territorial and wartime recruit. Regardless of the terms they had signed up under, all were now deemed enlisted for the duration of the war

As the Army rapidly shrunk back to a peacetime size in 1919, there was worry at the loss of skill and experience. To counter this bonuses were on offer to men to sign up for a further period which may be reflected in the 53426 service number, being replaced with his new unique Army number 4737151 when those were introduced in 1920.

As he served into the 1920’s his records, as has already been pointed out, would have been retained by the Ministry of Defence. Some of their records for men born before 1901 are currently in the process of being transferred to the National Archive, where the plan is for them to be scanned and eventually made available online at FindMyPast. I’ve just tried a search of the press release the MoD put out about it a few years back, but I’m not getting any matches for his last two Y&L service numbers, (although that field isn’t always completed) and there are rather a lot of J. Stewarts with a date of birth in the 1886-88 period. The MoD have said that there is a system in place to allow individual records to be recalled from the National Archive in the event that they receive an enquiry.

Cheers,
Peter

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10 hours ago, mutley said:

Tim

He landed in France on 09/09/1914 and he transferred to the Labour Cops on the 13/06/17.

Mutley

Quote

he transferred to the Labour Cops

What was the job of the labour Corp?

Is this transfer done voluntarily or done as and when numbers are required or as a punishment (Joseph was Court Martialled twice).

If done as and when numbers are required, then why was a good fighting man (4 wound stripes and newspaper articles stating he was involved with German trench raids) moved to the labour Corp. Would it have been a case that he was no longer fit to be a 'fighting man' but still fit enough to labour?

 

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12 minutes ago, Tim S said:

“why was a good fighting man (4 wound stripes and newspaper articlesstating he was involved with German trench raids) moved to the labour Corp.”

“Would it have been a case that he was no longer fit to be a 'fighting man' but still fit enough to labour?“

Yes, it was extremely common for men wounded, or sick, to on recovery be transferred to the Labour Corps if they were no longer fit enough for frontline infantry service.  The Labour Corps worked on the ‘lines of communication’ (an army’s tail) and in training establishments and headquarters to provide all manner of infrastructure support services to enable life in the field.

NB.  Four wound stripes is testament to why he might no longer be A1 fit.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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11 hours ago, PRC said:

Wikipedia page for the relevant version of the Indian General service Medal to which the clasp "North West Frontier 1908" should be attached - just to make sure we are talking about the same medal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_General_Service_Medal_(1909)

Hart's Annual Army List, 1908 edition, ("correct to the end of December 1907), shows the 1st Battalion at Quetta and the 2nd Battalion at York.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100879338

There was no change on the 1909 edition. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100684650

Of course a 2nd Battalion man may have been transferred out to the 1st Battalion and then subsequently returned. I can see that the 1911 Census of England & Wales has a 25 year old Private Joseph Stewart, born Gosport, who was recorded in barracks with the 1st Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment at Hyderabad, Sind. His army trade is shown as Cook. As the birth of you Great Uncle looks like it was registered in the Alverstoke District of Hampshire, I suspect they are probably the same man.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Quote

I can see that the 1911 Census of England & Wales has a 25 year old Private Joseph Stewart, born Gosport, who was recorded in barracks with the 1st Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment at Hyderabad, Sind. His army trade is shown as Cook. As the birth of you Great Uncle looks like it was registered in the Alverstoke District of Hampshire, I suspect they are probably the same man.

I have got that 1911 census page from my Ancestry site, and it is my Grand Uncle.

However, your paragraph has produced 2 more questions.

1. I can't see where it says that the page is associated with the 1st Battalion Y&L at Hyderabad. Can you point me in the right direction.

2. With regards to WW1 (3 years after this census) I see that he is mentioned in the 1911 census as his trade being a 'cook'. However, in WW1 I know he got wounded 4 times as I have a photo of him with 4 wound stripes on his uniform and newspaper articles mention he was wounded 4 times. Also one newspaper article I have says he was wounded whilst undertaking 'bombing raid' on a German trench. How can a cook be doing these infantry man jobs?

Tim

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Tim, 

it is possible that he was a cook who then became a fighting soldier in a rifle company. A cook in peacetime but then ended up in a rifle company during the war. Additionally cooks were not so far behind the lines that they couldn't be wounded, they often took rations up to the front lines.

I was interested in FROGSMILE's comment about a courts martial, but can find no reference to it in your post. Was he the subject of a courts martial, if so when?

 

Mutley

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11 hours ago, mutley said:

Tim,

If the medal is unnamed it suggests that it is not a medal which was awarded officially. It may be a replacement medal because the original official medal was lost, equally it may be that he wasn’t awarded it, perhaps he didn’t meet the award criteria, but he felt that he should have one and added it on himself. As he served in the Second World War, it is likely that his service records have survived. You can request a copy from  the MoD https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records this should show where he served etc and should also list medals awarded to him.

There is another issue with the group of medals you have shown, in that it is missing the Army Long Service and Good Conduct medal which he was awarded in 24/07/1926. His Medal Index Card for WW1 shows him as a 8078 Private in 2 York & Lancs, then a Pte in the Labour Corps as 227592, then 53426 Cpl York & Lancs and then finally 4737151 Sgt York & Lancs.

Mutley

Quote

As he served in the Second World War

He was 52 in 1939 at the start of the 2nd WW. So I think his qualifications for the Defence Medal and War Medal may have been due to non operational service as an ex member of the armed forces or Home Guard or Civil Defence. I have no idea why he has got the 1939-1945 Star! I be grateful if anyone can give me some pointers to establish why he qualified for theses medals.

Would his 2nd WW service record (if he had one as a Home Guard / Civil Defence) indicate his previous service in WW1 and 1908 North West Frontier?

Thanks

Tim

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25 minutes ago, mutley said:

Tim, 

it is possible that he was a cook who then became a fighting soldier in a rifle company. A cook in peacetime but then ended up in a rifle company during the war. Additionally cooks were not so far behind the lines that they couldn't be wounded, they often took rations up to the front lines.

Quote

I was interested in FROGSMILE's comment about a courts martial, but can find no reference to it in your post. Was he the subject of a courts martial, if so when?

He was Court Martialled twice 1906 and 1915

 

 

1906 (11th June) - Joseph De Silva Stewart (Junior) Court Martial.jpg

1915 (18th Jan) - Joseph De Silva Stewart (Junior) Court Martial.jpg

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27 minutes ago, Tim S said:

I can't see where it says that the page is associated with the 1st Battalion Y&L at Hyderabad. Can you point me in the right direction.

Took a bit of doing - had to scroll back through the institutional return that he is included on, then the institutional return for families, (wifes and children - suspect thats the married quarters) but the institutional return before that has been completed with the "1st Y & L Regiment" written vertically in one of the columns on each page. A check of sample names from those pages and the married quarters return shows location as Hyderabad, Sind. The enumerator references also look to be continuous. Unfortunately as I'm not accessing the census via Ancestry I can't guarantee you will be able to follow the same path.

Cheers,
Peter

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Thanks Peter for doing that. I didn't think it would involve taking up so much of your time. So I am very grateful.

Could you tell me please how I may access the 'Institutional Returns' so that I can see what you are looking at.

Can I also now assume, with the information provided throughout this post, that he was:

1. Attached to the 1st Y&L Battalion in 1908 and based in Quetta

2. Move to the 2nd Y&L Battalion sometime before WW1  

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1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, it was extremely common for men wounded, or sick, to on recovery be transferred to the Labour Corps if they were no longer fit enough for frontline infantry service.  The Labour Corps worked on the ‘lines of communication’ (an army’s tail) and in training establishments and headquarters to provide all manner of infrastructure support services to enable life in the field.

NB.  Four wound stripes is testament to why he might no longer be A1 fit.

Quote

The Labour Corps worked on the ‘lines of communication’ (an army’s tail) and in training establishments and headquarters to provide all manner of infrastructure support services to enable life in the field.

Hi Frogsmile

Thanks for that informative reply about the Labour Corp. I did not know that wounded men, upon recovery, but not fit for front line duty, got transferred to the Labour Corp. I thought it was a Corp to put the 'Bad Boys' as punishment (seeing he had been Court Martialled twice).

So can I assume that after his 4th wounding, in which he received 3 machine gun bullets during a German trench raid (one bullet in the thigh and two bullets in the right arm - breaking a bone in the arm) he was re-posted to the labour Corp, for 'lighter' non combatant duties.

How would I go about finding what those duties were? I.e. training establishment, headquarters, etc.

Tim

 

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55 minutes ago, Tim S said:

He was 52 in 1939 at the start of the 2nd WW. So I think his qualifications for the Defence Medal and War Medal may have been due to non operational service as an ex member of the armed forces or Home Guard or Civil Defence. I have no idea why he has got the 1939-1945 Star! I be grateful if anyone can give me some pointers to establish why he qualified for theses medals.

Would his 2nd WW service record (if he had one as a Home Guard / Civil Defence) indicate his previous service in WW1 and 1908 North West Frontier?

Thanks

Tim

Tim

There will be no service record for the Home Guard Im afraid, but it may still be worth checking to see if his record exists as he seems to have carried on serving after WW1. It is strange that he was awarded the LS&GC given that he had been the subject of a courts martial twice. There is no annotation on his MIC to say that he forfeited the LSGC. I can't read the reasons for his CM on the two images which you posted, was it something serious?

Mutley

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7 minutes ago, Tim S said:

Hi Frogsmile

Thanks for that informative reply about the Labour Corp. I did not know that wounded men, upon recovery, but not fit for front line duty, got transferred to the Labour Corp. I thought it was a Corp to put the 'Bad Boys' as punishment (seeing he had been Court Martialled twice).

So can I assume that after his 4th wounding, in which he received 3 machine gun bullets during a German trench raid (one bullet in the thigh and two bullets in the right arm - breaking a bone in the arm) he was re-posted to the labour Corp, for 'lighter' non combatant duties.

How would I go about finding what those duties were? I.e. training establishment, headquarters, etc.

Tim

 

The men of the Labour Corps were older or of lower medical grade, but it did not mean they were unfit for duty in a war zone, just not as infantrymen.  They often worked along the LofC within the range of artillery fire and quite a number were killed in that way.  

The Labour Corps (LC) were a service support corps that carried out important Labour in the rear areas such as road, rail and trench repair, unloading and loading stores, and supporting headquarters, storage dumps and training schools with administrative personnel.

Many but not all of their men were organised in “Employment Companies” and by mid 1917 they largely replaced able soldiers in administrative roles so that the fitter men could more readily be deployed to wartime theatres.  A great many wounded men who achieved partial fitness after convalescing were transferred to the Labour Corps where they could continue to contribute to the war effort.

The LC soldiers generally worked under the instructions of depot and camp Quartermasters, or Labour Staff officers in formation headquarters and acted as labourers in support of the interior economy of the camps, or on work parties for the formations they were tasked to support.  They often fulfilled such roles as storemen, cook house fatigue men, ostlers, clerks, and more physical roles such as distributing coal, animal feed and clean straw for refilling palliasses.  In short they were vital in supporting the infrastructure of the camps, headquarters and depots, but they also built and maintained roads and narrow gauge railways essential for keeping the front line supplied.

“The Officer Commanding each Employment Company was to maintain a list of men, categorised into the forms of employment for which they were best suited:

“Batman

Cook

Storeman or Caretaker

Sanitary Duty

Orderly

Clerk

Tailor

Shoemaker

Policeman

Butcher

Regimental Institute

Salvage

Loader and Brakesman

Bath and Drying Room

Laundry

Traffic Control

Telephone Operator.”

“The companies took over this wide variety of work once they had been established.“

NB.  As well as units in France and Flanders there was a significant presence of less fit and often older men in Labour Corps units supporting the war effort at home.  As well as similar Labour tasks to those outlined above, often in training camps, there were also administrative orderlies for non medical duties in hospitals, and even agricultural companies to assist with the harvests (this was especially important during the U-Boat war to counter the German’s concerted efforts to starve Britain into submission).

8993ACBA-5735-4650-A5FB-D40A9B2E0802.jpeg

49A75BBF-241E-4FA1-AA05-FE077967EF5B.jpeg

CC49DAF4-F0E4-4AC9-8D89-34F64B6965A9.jpeg

313C2E2A-39C8-4181-98D4-F251136F0581.jpeg

7F4D8E29-F96E-4222-8F2F-E0239A6D990A.jpeg

A313E68C-CF5F-451A-A42E-EC4E40C4E5E8.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There is mention early in the thread of court’s martial.  It’s likely that he forfeited the NWF medal, as was a common penalty at the time.  He would certainly forfeit any long service and good conduct medal for the same reason (service must be entirely without regimental level disciplinary sanction).  My guess is that he harboured some degree of resentment over losing his India medal and later obtained a replacement, which he would have had to purchase.  It was usual for individually purchased replacements to come without personal details inscribed.

Quote

There is mention early in the thread of court’s martial.  It’s likely that he forfeited the NWF medal, as was a common penalty at the time.  He would certainly forfeit any long service and good conduct medal for the same reason (service must be entirely without regimental level disciplinary sanction).  My guess is that he harboured some degree of resentment over losing his India medal and later obtained a replacement, which he would have had to purchase.  It was usual for individually purchased replacements to come without personal details inscribed.

His 1st Court Martial was in 1906, so the 1908 medal had not been issued then. So, assuming he did have the original 1908 medal (inscribed with his name rank and number), then do you think it was forfeited as part of his 1915 Court Martial, and if so, how can I find if this is the case.

His Long Service and Good Conduct Medal was issued in 1926 (according to his medal card). However, my relative who holds all his medals does not have this medal. If the medal card says it was issued in 1926, could this be a mistake and he wasn't actually issue it because he had been a 'bad boy' twice throughout his military service. Does anyone have any suggestions why the family don't have this medal and if it was actually issued, where we can trace it?

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15 minutes ago, Tim S said:

Hi Frogsmile

Thanks for that informative reply about the Labour Corp. I did not know that wounded men, upon recovery, but not fit for front line duty, got transferred to the Labour Corp. I thought it was a Corp to put the 'Bad Boys' as punishment (seeing he had been Court Martialled twice).

So can I assume that after his 4th wounding, in which he received 3 machine gun bullets during a German trench raid (one bullet in the thigh and two bullets in the right arm - breaking a bone in the arm) he was re-posted to the labour Corp, for 'lighter' non combatant duties.

How would I go about finding what those duties were? I.e. training establishment, headquarters, etc.

Tim

 

Tim,

his MIC shows him as being a Pte in the Labour Corps from 13/06/17 and then returning at some stage to the York & Lancs as a Cpl and then Sgt. If his service record survives this will tell you which Labour Corps units he was assigned to. The work could be Home Service work, such as making things towards the war effort or at the other end of the scale he could be employed as has already been stated above, repairing roads, carrying stores, rations, ammunition etc. up to the front lines; did he have any specific pre Army skills? His wounds were not serious enough for him to be discharged during the war.

My grandfather served in the infantry (wounded Gallipoli and then shot in the chest on the Somme) and after his second wounding was transferred to the Labour Crops in 1917, he was then subsequently medically discharged in early 1918. He was employed as a wood working machinist (his pre Army trade) up to his time of discharge.

What date do you have for his fourth wounding? 

 

Edited by mutley
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3 minutes ago, Tim S said:

His 1st Court Martial was in 1906, so the 1908 medal had not been issued then. So, assuming he did have the original 1908 medal (inscribed with his name rank and number), then do you think it was forfeited as part of his 1915 Court Martial, and if so, how can I find if this is the case.

Tim

I don't believe that the medal would be forfeited for whatever misdemeanour he was convicted of in 1915. There is no correlation between the two events. I do find it odd that a chap who has been convicted twice qualifies for the LS&GC though.

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35 minutes ago, Tim S said:

His 1st Court Martial was in 1906, so the 1908 medal had not been issued then. So, assuming he did have the original 1908 medal (inscribed with his name rank and number), then do you think it was forfeited as part of his 1915 Court Martial, and if so, how can I find if this is the case.

His Long Service and Good Conduct Medal was issued in 1926 (according to his medal card). However, my relative who holds all his medals does not have this medal. If the medal card says it was issued in 1926, could this be a mistake and he wasn't actually issue it because he had been a 'bad boy' twice throughout his military service. Does anyone have any suggestions why the family don't have this medal and if it was actually issued, where we can trace it?

1.  India GSM.  There was a period when medals were automatically forfeited upon conviction at court martial and I think that was probably still the situation in 1908.

2.  LS&GC.  It’s possible I suppose that this medal was received (they arrived by post with a receipt for which return was specifically requested), but then lost subsequently and /or never fitted to the group.  

NB.  The Army Medal Office, now in Glasgow with the Records Office is responsible for issues, I don’t know if they have retained LS&GC records.  You must remember that in our computer age we often forget the expense of large stores of paper records and past governments have often at best weeded them and at worst destroyed them completely as no longer required. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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11 minutes ago, mutley said:

Tim

There will be no service record for the Home Guard Im afraid, but it may still be worth checking to see if his record exists as he seems to have carried on serving after WW1. It is strange that he was awarded the LS&GC given that he had been the subject of a courts martial twice. There is no annotation on his MIC to say that he forfeited the LSGC. I can't read the reasons for his CM on the two images which you posted, was it something serious?

Mutley

Quote

I can't read the reasons for his CM on the two images which you posted, was it something serious?

1906 Court Martial age 19 - Private Joseph De Silva Stewart= Striking a Lance Corporal - 84 days imprisonment

1915 Court Martial age 28 = Private Joseph De Silva Stewart = Drunkenness with A/S (I think A/S means Assault) and Striking or violence to SO (I think SO means senior officer) - 84 days field punishment 1 

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