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Remembered Today:

Unit i/d of William Henry SQUIRE b. 01.12.1877


Ecoust 020417

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Hi,

I`d like to ask the forum for their thoughts on the cap badge of a soldier I`m researching related to my family. Unfortunately nothing is known about his military career and the whereabouts of his medals are also unknown. I am in possesion of a photo which is rather poor and what`s attached is the best I can squeeze out of it.

His name was William Henry SQUIRE and he was born in North Devon 01.12.1877.

I have looked through the Medal Index Cards looking for possible candidates and my thoughts are he`s probably wearing the badge of the Devonshire Regiment (which would make sense), or possibly the A.S.C. I have another relative from North Devon who also served in the A.S.C. so this is also very possible. Unfortunately his cap band is obscuring the bottom part of the badge and there`s a bad crease to the left, but it looks like a crown at the top with a six pointed star as the background. The only oddity is that there`s a distinct impression of a vertical element running through the badge which doesn`t really fit the Devons or A.S.C; although it could just be the way the light is catching it.

I`d appreciate people`s comments and opinions as I`m struggling to come to a conclusion. Also attached are a list of possible candidates extracted from the M.I.D.`s.

Thank you very much for any help.

John

William H. SQUIRE     Lab. Corps. Essex Regt.    Pte.    69977            (Unlikely)
William H. SQUIRE     W. Riding Regt.                Pte.    22305            (Unlikely)
William H. SQUIRE     R.E.                                 Spr.    26763            (Unlikely)

William H. SQUIRE     Notts & Derby Regt.        Pte.    45931            (Unlikely)
                                South Staffs Regt.             Pte.    60147

William H. SQUIRE     King`s Royal Rifle Corps    Pte.    4533            (Unlikely)

William H. SQUIRE     R.A. ???                            Pte.    129647            (Unlikely)

William Henry SQUIRE     A.S.C.                        Pte.    SS/21488
                                       West Yorks Regt.        -    61156
                                       Labour Corps            -    349644

William SQUIRE     R.N. Devon Yeomanry R.E.    Pte.    A515858
William SQUIRE     R.F.A.                                   Gnr?    29159        (Unlikely)
William SQUIRE     R.F.A.                                   Gnr    107790        (Unlikely)
William SQUIRE     Liverpool Regt.                    Pte.    163985        (Unlikely)
William SQUIRE     Devon Regt.                        Pte.    268333
William SQUIRE     R.F.A.                                   Gnr.    103435        (Unlikely)

 

WH_Squire_1.jpg

WH_Squire_2.jpg

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My first thought was Army Service Corps [the pierced variant from before 1916]

For an older man this might have been a reasonable posting. ??

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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1 hour ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

William Henry SQUIRE     A.S.C.                        Pte.    SS/21488
                                       West Yorks Regt.        -    61156
                                       Labour Corps            -    349644

Personally I'd be looking at this chap first.

A move to the Labour Corps would seem a reasonable next step for an older ASC soldier.

Starling & Lee's excellent history of the Labour Corps "No Labour, No Battle" suggests, from his 349644 number, that he joined the LC approximately June to September 1917

As SQUIRES From a WFA/Fold3 pension index card we can see he claimed an unspecified condition for a disabilty pension when he transferred to the W. Yorks Z Reserve, 16/3/19

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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2 hours ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

William Henry SQUIRE     A.S.C.                        Pte.    SS/21488
                                       West Yorks Regt.        -    61156
                                       Labour Corps            -    349644

His service records survive & are on both the fold3 & ancestry websites.  May also be on findmypast.  Hope this summary rules him in or out.

William Harry Squire of 32 Packington Road, South Acton London W.  aged 40 years and 10 months, occupation navvy, no previous military service. Attested 25.10.1915 London. Married Alice Kate KIPPEL in Middlesex 7.6.1897. One child, Emily born 20.4,1900 in Acton. 

Posted to ASC 26.10.1915

M.E.F. 1915 to 1917

Transfered to Labour corps while in ME 1917.

Discharged as 61156 West Yorks R. 1919.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1219&h=1847501&tid=&pid=&queryId=6e51631bf5980ca704cd73e949eafc78&usePUB=true&_phsrc=sNF29&_phstart=successSource

 

Travers

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1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Personally I'd be looking at this chap first.

A move to the Labour Corps would seem a reasonable next step for an older ASC soldier.

Starling & Lee's excellent history of the Labour Corps "No Labour, No Battle" suggests, from his 349644 number, that he joined the LC approximately June to September 1917

As SQUIRES From a WFA/Fold3 pension index card we can see he claimed an unspecified condition for a disabilty pension when he transferred to the W. Yorks Z Reserve, 16/3/19

M

M

Thank you very much for the quick and helpful replies.

I did have a suspicion that the individual you highlighted might be a good candidate, especially as he`s the only one specifically named as William Henry, but I wasn`t too sure as that is just as likely to be a lucky coincidence.

You`ll have to forgive me as my knowledge of such things is fairly limited but I take it if was pensioned for a disability to the West Yorkshire Regiment "Z" Reserve, I take it he wouldn`t have served with the regiment but was just retained, as the name suggest, on "Z" reserve until his time ran out?

My I also ask, at the risk of breaking the forum rules, is there anything else of interest on his Fold3 pension card which might help identify him? I`m sorry to ask but I`m not on Fold3 and I`m clutching at straws for anything.

Thank you again,

John

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7 minutes ago, travers61 said:

His service records survive & are on both the fold3 & ancestry websites.  May also be on findmypast.  Hope this summary rules him in or out.

William Harry Squire of 32 Packington Road, South Acton London W.  aged 40 years and 10 months, occupation navvy, no previous military service. Attested 25.10.1915 London. Married Alice Kate KIPPEL in Middlesex 7.6.1897. One child, Emily born 20.4,1900 in Acton. 

Posted to ASC 26.10.1915

M.E.F. 1915 to 1917

Transfered to Labour corps while in ME 1917.

Discharged as 61156 West Yorks R. 1919.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1219&h=1847501&tid=&pid=&queryId=6e51631bf5980ca704cd73e949eafc78&usePUB=true&_phsrc=sNF29&_phstart=successSource

 

Travers

Travers / Matlock,

Only just seen this post after my last reply.

No this isn`t him. The person I`m looking at was born 01.12.1877 in North Devon and at the time of enlistment was living at Sidbury in South Devon. I can also see know, having taken a closer look at the medal index car again, the name is indeed William HARRY Squire, not William HENRY Squire. I apologise for the mixup but the writing is very poor.

My gut is leaning towards the Devons but there aren`t many candidates unless I`ve missed a medal index card in my original search and there are more William H SQUIRE.

Thank you both for your help.

John

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1 minute ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

You`ll have to forgive me as my knowledge of such things is fairly limited but I take it if was pensioned for a disability to the West Yorkshire Regiment "Z" Reserve, I take it he wouldn`t have served with the regiment but was just retained, as the name suggest, on "Z" reserve until his time ran out?

Transfer to the Z Reserve - essentially he would have gone home to largely enjoy civilian life never to be formally remobilised before the ZR was disbanded 31 March 1920

It was a quick fix to allow for quick remobilistaion if necessary - if the Peace Treaty was not signed/the Armistice failed and hostilities recommenced.

See the LLT regarding the Z Reserve https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists 

On transfer to the ZR a soldier had the option to fill in an Army Form Z.22 and start a disabilty pension claim.

That he was to go to the ZR suggests that he wasn't to badly disabled or was expected to recover or at least to possibly provide some service to the nation if remobilised in the future - likely subject to a further medical exam.

2 minutes ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

My I also ask, at the risk of breaking the forum rules, is there anything else of interest on his Fold3 pension card which might help identify him? I`m sorry to ask but I`m not on Fold3 and I`m clutching at straws for anything.

No problem asking about the pension card on WFA/Fold3 - not that I could see - unfortunately no disability condition [not even a rate of pension tha tcould have givenus an idea of his level of disability] and no address visible.

M

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22 minutes ago, travers61 said:

His service records survive & are on both the fold3 & ancestry websites.  May also be on findmypast.  Hope this summary rules him in or out.

William Harry Squire of 32 Packington Road, South Acton London W.  aged 40 years and 10 months, occupation navvy, no previous military service. Attested 25.10.1915 London. Married Alice Kate KIPPEL in Middlesex 7.6.1897. One child, Emily born 20.4,1900 in Acton. 

Posted to ASC 26.10.1915

M.E.F. 1915 to 1917

Transfered to Labour corps while in ME 1917.

Discharged as 61156 West Yorks R. 1919.

2 minutes ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

having taken a closer look at the medal index car again, the name is indeed William HARRY Squire, not William HENRY Squire. I apologise for the mixup but the writing is very poor.

4 minutes ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

No this isn`t him. The person I`m looking at was born 01.12.1877 in North Devon and at the time of enlistment was living at Sidbury in South Devon.

I read MIC as William Henry SQUIRE [though Harry could perhaps have been his diminutive/familiar name]

But if the personal details don't match it looks like we will have to look elsewhere.

BTW where did the photo come from? - as it initially seemed an ASC cap badge to me.  Though on now reviewing I can also see the Devonshire badge potentially in it too.

Back to the drawing board it seems!

M

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From pension cards at WFA/Fold3: How about William Henry SQUIRES, 1211, Devons [also 4087 & 292927] - leads to ...

Pioneer W H SQUIRE, 292927, RE = with a dependant of Mr[s] E DYMOND, 49 Browning Coutrt, Coombe St, Exeter

A dependant is more likely to be a mother than a widow.

Under William Henry SQUIRES, 292927 RE and 1211, 4087 Devons [and a further possible regimental number of 340271 for RE - though this could perhaps be a regional number for pension admin ?? Edit: the latter explanation now seems very unlikely] he had a disability claim giving an address C/o Mrs MILLER, 9 Dove Lane, Newfoundland, St. Pauls, Bristol.

Could he be your man??

M

Edited by Matlock1418
add second address etc.
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4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

From pension cards at WFA/Fold3: How about William Henry SQUIRES, 1211, Devons [also 4087 & 292927] - leads to ...

Pioneer W H SQUIRE, 292927, RE = with a dependant of Mr[s] E DYMOND, 49 Browning Coutrt, Coombe St, Exeter

M

Matlock,

That`s another good candidate but he`s elminated due to the wrong parentage and location. He`s also a SQUIRES not SQUIRE. It`s a devil as Devon is full of both surnames and they often get written down incorrectly.

I`ve also now eliminated another one off the list as further digging indicates s/n A515858 served with R.E. Pioneers in the Dardanelles with the N.Devon Hussars and on the South Molton museum website his parents are listed and they aren`t the correct parents fo my chap. (More below).

Unless I`m missing a M.I.C., that`s suggesting possibly s/n 268333, but I`m a bit unhappy as he`s not listed with a middle name.

The photo came from a distant relative who I`m trying to help, They`ve asked around all the closer members of this chap`s family but no one has any paperwork or anything to do with his military service so it`s a bit of struggle, hence the request.

For the record the person I`m looking for was probably living in Sidbury, South Devon at the time of enlistment, but born in North Devon. His parents were William & Sarah SQUIRE.

I have another relative who served in 9 Btn. Devons and his s/n started with a 26 but I don`t have sufficient knowledge to know whether that`s significant or just coincidence.

Thanks for the above.

John

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3 minutes ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

He`s also a SQUIRES not SQUIRE. It`s a devil as Devon is full of both surnames and they often get written down incorrectly.

The Army certainly wasn't short of erroneous surnames.

The MoP have both options for 292927

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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8 minutes ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

Unless I`m missing a M.I.C., that`s suggesting possibly s/n 268333

William SQUIRE, 268333, Devon R on MIC at WFA/Fold3

Went to Z Res[erve] - Couldn't find a pension card(s)

M

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1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

William SQUIRE, 268333, Devon R on MIC at WFA/Fold3

Went to Z Res[erve] - Couldn't find a pension card(s)

M

Thank you.

Based on your previous comment and experience, is it possible that this individual may have had his middle initial of "H" missed from his M.I.C.? Just curious if I`m possibly putting two-and-two together to come up with the answer I want when it could well be a candidate I haven`t identified even. I ask this as I`m primarily searching M.I.C.s for the name and no other source except FindMyPast.

John

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10 minutes ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

is it possible that this individual may have had his middle initial of "H" missed from his M.I.C.

Absolutely "Yes"

Or perhaps had only used his second forename of Henry or perhaps even used Harry and had that registered with the Army etc.  Oh joy!

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Absolutely "Yes"

M

Thank you. That makes me feel a little better.

An initial delve indicates his service record (s/n 268333), probably doesn`t survive so I think it`s going to be an up-hill struggle trying to confirm it`s him but at least we`ve eliminated a few suspects.

I appreciate your help and time spent in replying.

John

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Or perhaps, as an older man, only did Home Service = no MIC ??

Or did his O/s Service with another unit = and the earlier Devonshire service thus not recorded on his MIC ??

Or even ended up with an 'Army surname' of Squires!! ?? - I think you need to consider those too.

Oh joy, oh joy, oh joy!!

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

Or perhaps, as an older man, only did Home Service = no MIC ??

Or did his O/s Service with another unit = and the earlier Devonshire service thus not recorded on his MIC ??

Oh joy, oh joy!!

M

Oh dear!

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Got a pension card for a William Henry SQUIRES, 1294, Devonshire and WR340271, Royal Engineers, Discharged 19-3-18 - Paralysis of Lt Arm

Gave an address of Castle St. Bristol

The trouble is that he has a DoB of 1866 [Not that Army ages are necessarily accurate - but pensions could be better! - so probably might rule him out, for now anyway!!]

Couldn't find a MIC - Quite possibly a HS only chap.

And there is a pension card for William SQUIRES, 9095, Devonshire - Discharged 1-2-17 GSW Rt Buttock

Gave an address of 7 York Place, Combe St, Exeter

The trouble is that he has a DoB of 1891 [Not that Army ages are necessarily accurate - but pensions could be better! - so probably might rule him out, for now anyway!!]

He has a MIC

Really stabbing at the moment.

Got to go for now.  Good luck!

M

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1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

Got a pension card for a William Henry SQUIRES, 1294, Devonshire and WR340271, Royal Engineers, Discharged 19-3-18 - Paralysis of Lt Arm

Gave an address of Castle St. Bristol

The trouble is that he has a DoB of 1866 [Not that Army ages are necessarily accurate - but pensions could be better! - so probably might rule him out, for now anyway!!]

Couldn't find a MIC - Quite possibly a HS only chap.

And there is a pension card for William SQUIRES, 9095, Devonshire - Discharged 1-2-17 GSW Rt Buttock

Gave an address of 7 York Place, Combe St, Exeter

The trouble is that he has a DoB of 1891 [Not that Army ages are necessarily accurate - but pensions could be better! - so probably might rule him out, for now anyway!!]

He has a MIC

Really stabbing at the moment.

Got to go for now.  Good luck!

M

No problem, thanks for all the help.

My man defo from Sidbury or South Molton way.

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Just now, Ecoust 020417 said:

My man defo from Sidbury or South Molton way.

All his life?

M

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2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

All his life?

M

Pretty much around this period.

Pre 1911 lived in the Roborough area of North Devon, then moved to Hookway near Crediton but around WW1 moved to Sidbury. By this time he was married with a family of three children.

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5 minutes ago, Ecoust 020417 said:

Pre 1911 lived in the Roborough area of North Devon, then moved to Hookway near Crediton but around WW1 moved to Sidbury.

Sorry, none of those [yet?] turn up a WFA/Fold3 pension card for him.

M

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2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sorry, none of those [yet?] turn up a WFA/Fold3 pension card for him.

M

OK, thank you for looking.

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  • Admin

Hopefully @FROGSMILEwil, identify the co badge. I’m leaning towards Devonshire Regiment. 

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Last stab for now from WFA/Fold 3: 

William SQUIRE, 245548, Labour Corps and Devonshire - discharged 2-8-19 - unspecified condition for a disability got him 17/4 pw for 51 weeks.

Unfortunately no address but you might perhaps find something ???

There's a Discharge card MIC under 245548, LC - no medals indicated so looks like HS only at the moment - served 10-12-15 to 2-8-19 - discharged as Para 392 xvi = SWB listed

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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