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Remembered Today:

John Marney, Fireman, Inland Water Transport Royal Engineers


john marney

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while searching my familys history i found a book it is called booth line war service 1914-1918 and in it my great grandad is listed as a fireman re (i.w.t.) i also managed to get a copy of his short service enlistment form 1915 but that is all i have been able to find can anyone give me some advice on how to find where he served during the war 

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  • Admin

I have split this into a new topic and moved it to soldiers. Can you give us his name and any more information you can  share? 

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  • 2 months later...

while looking into my familys past i found a book booth line war service 1914 - 1918 and it lists everyone who worked for the booth line who served in ww1 in it it lists my great grandad as a R.E.(I.W.T.) but no service number i did manage to find his his short service enlistment form but i havent been able to find out where he was stationed or what he did during the three years he served i was wondering if there is a way to find out

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Many merchant navy officers were accepted into service in the IWT(RE), particularly in the Mesopotamia theatre (but elsewhere to). If you let people know your GGF’s name, then there’s a good chance that a forum pal may well be able to provide you with details of his service.

MB

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  • Admin

@john marney I’ve moved this to your (already split off) post that was started in May. Please keep queries and replies on this thread. 

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25 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Many merchant navy officers were accepted into service in the IWT(RE), particularly in the Mesopotamia theatre (but elsewhere to). If you let people know your GGF’s name, then there’s a good chance that a forum pal may well be able to provide you with details of his service.

i only started looking into the time period 1915 - 1918 because theres a gap in his records hopefully one of your forum pals can help me find his records

MB

thank you for replying so promptly his name was john marney and before 1915 he was a fireman i have his complete merchant navy discharge books 

2020-07-07_172335.jpg

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John MARNEY

Pension record at Western Front Association/Fold3 as Sapper122148 and WR/500965, RE, at that 161 Upper Mann St, Liverpool address - Claim was Rejected - Mental care/case - Admitted to asylum [cards dated 1922/23]

image.png.59ca95b5658bf2cf7f79b3fbc3c6e58c.png

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3 [the 147844 further indicates it was a rejected claim] - as he was a seaman in 1941 it looks like he pulled through.

MIC as those numbers: BWM & VM

Service Record at Ancestry as 122148

M

Edited by Matlock1418
add pension card
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thank you

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  • Michelle Young changed the title to John Marney, Fireman, Inland Water Transport Royal Engineers

I couldn’t locate where he actually served, but did find his medal card online at TNA (BWM & Victory Medal).

Given his pre-enlistment trade as a fireman in the mercantile marine, it would have been sensible to put him to work looking after the boilers on one of the war department tugs (manned by IWT(RE) personnel) - however whose to say the army would do the sensible thing?

MB

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thanks thats brilliant

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Equally, he could have been in one of the  IWT cross- channel ferries operating out of Richborough or Southampton.

TR

 

Edited by Terry_Reeves
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I read a article that stated that in 1915 the re iwt took over transport on the Leeds to Liverpool canal 

In the sixties my dad moved from Liverpool to Leeds he never said why I wonder if my great grandad who had brought my dad up had told him of Leeds and got my dad curious enough to go and have a look he met my mum and stayed in Leeds for the rest of his life

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5 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Equally, he could have been in one of the  IWT cross- channel ferries operating out of Richborough or Southampton.

TR

 

Very true, but the cross-channel tug and barge service was up and running a whole year before the introduction of the IWT train ferries (which only started up in February 1918).
We don’t yet really know for sure where Spr. Marney served, but statistically, there is indeed a strong possibility that he might have been based out of Richborough (Sandwich, Kent) - as that employed the vast majority of IWT (RE) troops (outside of Mesopotamia).

MB

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Thanks for the info 😊

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7 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

I couldn’t locate where he actually served, but did find his medal card online at TNA (BWM & Victory Medal).

Given his pre-enlistment trade as a fireman in the mercantile marine, it would have been sensible to put him to work looking after the boilers on one of the war department tugs (manned by IWT(RE) personnel) - however whose to say the army would do the sensible thing?

MB

Cheers I've managed to get copies of his medals I thought about buying real ones but I don't want to own someone elses medals 

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Sapper John Marney's records are sparse even by IWT standards but they do show that having joined in Liverpool on 30.9.1915 he was instructed to proceed to Longmoor, for his initial military training, on 1.10.1915.

He then embarked for France to join the BEF on the 26th day of an illegible month.  There are no further entries until he is posted to Richborough by the IWT BEF on 4.4.1919 shortly before he was demobilised returning to his career with the Booth Steamship Co.Ltd on their ship the DUNSTAN on 14.4.1919, this from his CR10 Identity Card which has a photo of him.

Though IWT records are notoriously erratic in their completion, Marney's records are no different to hundreds of others where seamen, firemen, lightermen, watermen, bargemen and many other "nautically" trained men embarked to the BEF for service with the IWT on the canals and rivers of France and Belgium in a variety of different craft transporting stores and men to and from the areas close to the front.

As has been already stated it is a fair bet that he ended up as fireman on one of the As Tugs towing barges through the canal system and engaging on coastal passages between river mouths.  I can't find any evidence to suggest he served from Richborough.  Normally, though not exclusively, service records of men employed on the barge or train ferry services between England & France were endorsed with the comment "Served on Cross Channel Services at various times" added as proof that they did go to France so that medals could be issued.  Home service did not accrue any medals, from comments in letters this was much to the chagrin of many IWT soldiers serving at Richborough. Where there was any doubt then the service records usually contain a form asking the soldier to fill in what vessels he sailed on and the dates he went to France, giving a NCO or Officer's name for corroboration.  Though many could not remember exactly, it was generally good enough for the issue of medals.  As Marney was issued his medals without any problem, service in France with the BEF is most likely

Some As canal and coastal tugs were to a standard War office design, but many were taken up from civilian trade so were varied in design, the photo shows a busy IWT scene at Arques. Courtesy of the IWM.  There were, however, other steam powered craft on which Marney could have served.  

Just as a matter of interest, the Train Ferries were actually completed in early November 1917 and by 30.11.1917 all three started delivering much needed railway wagons from Southampton, even though the bridge (linkspan) was not completed, to Le Havre where the wagons were off loaded by crane.  February 1918 is the generally accepted date when the regular service from completed terminals commenced.

Tony

2047636353_Q33445.jpg.ec97074a7580702936de68809a741652.jpg

 

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thank you very much i am so glad i found this group 

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On 01/08/2022 at 10:40, MerchantOldSalt said:

Sapper John Marney's records are sparse even by IWT standards but they do show that having joined in Liverpool on 30.9.1915 he was instructed to proceed to Longmoor, for his initial military training, on 1.10.1915.

He then embarked for France to join the BEF on the 26th day of an illegible month.  There are no further entries until he is posted to Richborough by the IWT BEF on 4.4.1919 shortly before he was demobilised returning to his career with the Booth Steamship Co.Ltd on their ship the DUNSTAN on 14.4.1919, this from his CR10 Identity Card which has a photo of him.

Though IWT records are notoriously erratic in their completion, Marney's records are no different to hundreds of others where seamen, firemen, lightermen, watermen, bargemen and many other "nautically" trained men embarked to the BEF for service with the IWT on the canals and rivers of France and Belgium in a variety of different craft transporting stores and men to and from the areas close to the front.

As has been already stated it is a fair bet that he ended up as fireman on one of the As Tugs towing barges through the canal system and engaging on coastal passages between river mouths.  I can't find any evidence to suggest he served from Richborough.  Normally, though not exclusively, service records of men employed on the barge or train ferry services between England & France were endorsed with the comment "Served on Cross Channel Services at various times" added as proof that they did go to France so that medals could be issued.  Home service did not accrue any medals, from comments in letters this was much to the chagrin of many IWT soldiers serving at Richborough. Where there was any doubt then the service records usually contain a form asking the soldier to fill in what vessels he sailed on and the dates he went to France, giving a NCO or Officer's name for corroboration.  Though many could not remember exactly, it was generally good enough for the issue of medals.  As Marney was issued his medals without any problem, service in France with the BEF is most likely

Some As canal and coastal tugs were to a standard War office design, but many were taken up from civilian trade so were varied in design, the photo shows a busy IWT scene at Arques. Courtesy of the IWM.  There were, however, other steam powered craft on which Marney could have served.  

Just as a matter of interest, the Train Ferries were actually completed in early November 1917 and by 30.11.1917 all three started delivering much needed railway wagons from Southampton, even though the bridge (linkspan) was not completed, to Le Havre where the wagons were off loaded by crane.  February 1918 is the generally accepted date when the regular service from completed terminals commenced.

Tony

2047636353_Q33445.jpg.ec97074a7580702936de68809a741652.jpg

 

 

2020-07-07_165106.jpg

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i have his old discharge books but i am wanting to get a copy of his identity card but i am struggling to find it on line could you give me some advice on how to get a copy i would really appriciate any tips you could give me 

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His CR10 & CR2 identity cards are available on "FindMyPast" a subscription website "British Merchant Seamen 1918-1941".  From the copy of his discharge book you posted I can tell you that there is nothing on his CR10 which you do not already know from his discharge book.  The CR2 covers later dates 1923, 1924 & 1925 then there is a gap the next entry being 1940 do you have a discharge book to cover that period?  If so , save the subscription!  Here are the CR2 entries

1923  147554 PAPYRUS  Sunrise Steamship Co

1924  144410 FANTEE African Steamship co

1925  140521  FLAMINIAN Ellerman Lines

1940  135708 ?  NAGARA  Royal Mail Lines

Do you have a later discharge book which might explain the gap in service.  Identity Card entries are not hugely accurate but give you an idea.

I see that his entry in the 1939 register has his occupation as a Marine Fireman and that he is in the Mercantile Marine Reserve

Tony

Edited by MerchantOldSalt
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Thanks Tony I have his books dating from the late 1800s to Dec 1942 thank you very much for your help

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  • 1 month later...

Noticed someone from RE IWT on a plaque in Fairlie Parish Church

Quote

Corporal Peter Duncan and Sapper Daniel Duncan plaque

St. Paul's Parish Church
NS 20980 55597

1914 - 1918

TO THE GLORY OF GOD / AND IN LOVING MEMORY OF / CORPORAL PETER DUNCAN. /56TH BATT. A·I·F: AGED 25 / WHO WAS KILLED AT LOUVERVAL, FRANCE / ON APRIL 2ND 1917. ==== AND OF SAPPER DANIEL DUNCAN . R·E·I·W·T: WHO WAS LOST AT SEA / ON THE GOVERNMENT HOSPITAL SHIP / S.P.17, ON FEBY 26TH 1918. AGED 38 / SONS OF MR & MRS R. DUNCAN. / ALPHA COTTAGE, FAIRLIE, AYRSHIRE. / "THEY DIED THAT WE MIGHT LIVE"

 

 

1-2W9A8145.JPG

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SP-17 was a Steam Paddle-ship (intended to serve in Mesopotamia) that was lost during bad weather in the Eastern Mediterranean during its delivery voyage.

MB

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