Medal ribbon without the medal?

[tankengine888]

Hello! 
Mods, move if applicable
through my daily ‘stroll’ through VWMA, I found this!

Lieutenant Colonel Robert Gartside, commanding 7th Battalion.

he is wearing the QSA medal ribbon with the bars.. without the actual medal, so how does that work?

also, appears to be wearing prewar Militia uniform, maybe ranked Lieutenant judging by the rank on the gorget?

ttfn

Edited 9 May , 2022 by tankengine888

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Hello! 
Mods, move if applicable
through my daily ‘stroll’ through VWMA, I found this!

Lieutenant Colonel Robert Gartside, commanding 7th Battalion.

he is wearing the QSA medal ribbon with the bars.. without the actual medal, so how does that work?

also, appears to be wearing prewar Militia uniform, maybe ranked Lieutenant judging by the rank on the gorget?

ttfn

1.  When medals are instituted the ribbon usually becomes available before the medals themselves and it is permissible and common for the ribbons alone to be worn until such time as the ribbons themselves are received.

2.  He is indeed wearing militia uniform, where gorgets were a common feature.

3.  He is wearing unit collar badges matching his cap insignia superimposed on top of his gorgets. This is quite novel and I think not something originally envisaged as it sits awkwardly alongside the gorget button.

4.  The unit appears to be the 8th Battalion Australian Infantry Regiment (Victoria/Bendigo) - Citizen Military Force, going by a barely perceptible figure 8 in the cap badge design. 

NB.  During the initial landing at Gallipoli one company of the 7th (with which Gartside was later on to serve) was cut to pieces, whilst still in their boats, by a MG sited to cover the beach for which they were heading, losing 5 officers and over 100 soldiers (killed and wounded). 

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

27 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

1.  When medals are instituted the ribbon usually becomes available before the medals themselves and it is permissible and common for the ribbons alone to be worn until such time as the ribbons themselves are received.

2.  He is indeed wearing militia uniform, where gorgets were a common feature.

3.  He is wearing unit collar badges matching his cap insignia superimposed on top of his gorgets. This is quite novel and I think not something originally envisaged as it sits awkwardly alongside the gorget button.

4.  The unit appears to be the 8th Militia Regiment (Citizen Military Force) going by a barely perceptible figure 8 in the cap badge design. 

This all makes sense, 
So you're saying he probably preferred without the medal or never got them? Either way, makes sense. I remember what you told me about militia uniforms, plus you could probably spot one from a 100 yards away!
the 8th Battalion apart of the AIF was raised in Victoria, and this Colonel was from Victoria.
anyhow, thanks!

Also, does this mean the soldiers of the First World War got the ribbon first? This would explain why this VC winner is missing his 1914-15 star medal [courtesy of AWM]

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

This all makes sense, 
So you're saying he probably preferred without the medal or never got them? Either way, makes sense. I remember what you told me about militia uniforms, plus you could probably spot one from a 100 yards away!
the 8th Battalion apart of the AIF was raised in Victoria, and this Colonel was from Victoria.
anyhow, thanks!

Also, does this mean the soldiers of the First World War got the ribbon first? This would explain why this VC winner is missing his 1914-15 star medal [courtesy of AWM]

Yes it was common for the ribbon to be received through the ordnance supply chain first and a well established protocol for the ribbons to be worn until such time as the medal arrived.  This is because unlike some other countries the medals were of high quality and meticulously made.  It took time to set up the necessary machinery and establish a production run.

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Interested]

To confirm, my grandfather was awarded a Belgian Croix de Guerre in February 1918, but only the ribbon, which he then wore on his tunic (would be difficult to wear medals in a field of combat, IMO).  The medal turned up in 1919 delivered by post.

Hope this helps.

[charlie2]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

1.  When medals are instituted the ribbon usually becomes available before the medals themselves and it is permissible and common for the ribbons alone to be worn until such time as the ribbons themselves are received.

I totally agree with this but long pieces of ribbon with bars, that is not normal. It looks more like the German/European style of wearing just the ribbon rather than „British“. I may well be wrong and I am happy to be corrected, the QSA medal had been authorised in 1900 and the bars at a later date of April 1902 so I expect that the bars were either issued with the medal or after the medal.

There is a Lt R Gartside  of the 3rd Contingent Victoria Bushmen in the medal roll who is entitled to the QSA Medal with 4 bars - Cape Colony, Orange Free State, Transvaal and Rhodesia.

Charlie

[tankengine888]

17 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

I totally agree with this but long pieces of ribbon with bars, that is not normal. It looks more like the German/European style of wearing just the ribbon rather than „British“. I may well be wrong and I am happy to be corrected, the QSA medal had been authorised in 1900 and the bars at a later date of April 1902 so I expect that the bars were either issued with the medal or after the medal.

There is a Lt R Gartside  of the 3rd Contingent Victoria Bushmen in the medal roll who is entitled to the QSA Medal with 4 bars - Cape Colony, Orange Free State, Transvaal and Rhodesia.

Charlie

That is him, Lieutenant Gartside, wounded 1901. Known as a very good and respectable soldier.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie2 said:

I totally agree with this but long pieces of ribbon with bars, that is not normal. It looks more like the German/European style of wearing just the ribbon rather than „British“. I may well be wrong and I am happy to be corrected, the QSA medal had been authorised in 1900 and the bars at a later date of April 1902 so I expect that the bars were either issued with the medal or after the medal.

There is a Lt R Gartside  of the 3rd Contingent Victoria Bushmen in the medal roll who is entitled to the QSA Medal with 4 bars - Cape Colony, Orange Free State, Transvaal and Rhodesia.

Charlie

Charlie the longer ribbons seem to have been a hangover from the Victorian era.  In the first set of officers dress regulations to lay out protocols for medals (1904 I think) the prescribed measurement for ribbons worn alone was longer than it became in (if I recall correctly) the revised iteration of 1911.  The difference is noticeable in photos of late Victorian officers when compared with those subsequent to WW1.  I think you’re right about the European influence on the longer ribbons originally decreed, not least due to the Germanic influence via the Saxe Coburg connection with the then Royal Family. 

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

34 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Charlie the longer ribbons seem to have been a hangover from the Victorian era.

Thank you Frogsmile, one learns something new every day. Tankengine‘s photo is the very first time I‘ve seen British medal ribbons being worn like that.

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

Thank you Frogsmile, one learns something new every day. Tankengine‘s photo is the very first time I‘ve seen British medal ribbons being worn like that.

Charlie

It’s quite feasible that he’s overdone it Charlie, as the post Boer War period was when the regulations were being worked through.  I too have not seen them as long as that before, but it’s plain that he’s done so in order to fit the clasps on and then matched the other ribbon to the same length.  The years after that war were a time when there was a degree of ad-libbing and the regulations were subsequently established to bring some order to matters.

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE