AndyBsk Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 As mentioned the bayonets should be used on real rifles, i dont known this last reported has reworked lug moved to backside? and the Chassepot is a standart lenght handle here, it should be looked for attaching on various rifles, the conversion with prolongated handle were done prior 1890 as mentioned by Ruediger. Chassepot was declared obsolete already in 1900. This bayonet could be not attached on Gew88 as there is barell jacket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 The attached is from K.Lubbe, Deutsche Uniformen und Seitengewehre, 1999. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 (edited) Thanks for adding it here, anyway i dont see the rework details it should have prolongated locking lenght, removed the barell ring backside and removed much more spine area for barell jacket, normally the presented Chassepot with new crossguard and prolongated handle could be added on G71/84 and G88 , but the last 2 Chassepots presented by Demitrios only on Gew71 when it was changed the locking nut inside of pommel slot. The similar conversion are realised in majority pre 1890 as germans had many captured Chassepots. The majority were Landwehr marked. What i would say, there are differences in conversions and not all stepped spine of handle bayonets were for Gew88 reworked, there exist majority of conversion on Chassepot M66 for reworked Chassepot M66 rifles with new stocks same as for Gew71 and Gew71/84 systems that was realised period 1890 see Ruediger. The conversion to Gew88 are different because of the barell jacket large diameter very near of muzzle of barell end. And these conversions could be dont declared as all WW1 period. Wout proofing on real rifle and inspecting of crossguard barell ring area same as rifle slot in handle this could be not correctly destined, and these bayonets are not ersatz but adapted for "aptiert" for german rifles. Edited 16 May , 2022 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 Note that the photo above shows what looks to be a two-step change to the grip. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 (edited) the left gun looks like prolongated handle. By similar studio photos You couldnt see details of the conversion, secondly the right piece is not visible enough details of conversion. Edited 16 May , 2022 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 From photo is not clear if has altered muzzle ring or not. But phptos i have posted clearly show the unaltered of muzzle ring and the attachment on rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 Also on the photo Julian uploaded, it is clearly visible that the right bayonet, as we see the photo, has UNALTERED muzzle ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 (edited) As mentioned this is a studio photo, why do You believe germans made a prolongated handles as visible on Your 128R marked bayonet? The guard re-fitted with the secondary rivet placed and a new "S" shaped crossguard for the IS M/71, with a full muzzle ring rivetted throught the blade, reverse of the crossguard. unit marking for the 128 Infantry Regiment = Danziger Infanterie Regiment No. 128 when it would be so easy to attach on Gew71, Gew71/84 or Gew88. Both of these bayonets have the typical Lw modified scabbard frog, which means the conversion for Gew71 was done prior 1880, for this should be typical engraving on blade spine. Similar conversions are in Rudiger and other german literature. Similar studio photos are not real combat situation, there are many photos with wrong attached S84/98 on Gew88, which only mean by shooting of the photos was used what was there. there are exact described conversion done on captured Chassepot M66 to convert to german rifles of various models. Without change of MRD should be opened minimum to 18mm as the atachment is not straight, wout changes in pommel and with moving the locking stud backside or rework it inside of pommel, could be normally M66 not attached on any german rifle, as the locking lenght and details are different, german rifles since 1871 dont have bayonet adapter produced on barell body. Edited 16 May , 2022 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 16 May , 2022 Share Posted 16 May , 2022 Andy Post a photo please for your theory. With photos, assumptions vanished!!! Regards D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 13 hours ago, AndyBsk said: As mentioned this is a studio photo... Similar studio photos are not real combat situation... Andy, come on! Yes, it is a studio photograph, but these guys are holding rifles and bayonets that we know were used by the Landwehr/sturm! And they have posed as a group on mobilisation for a group photograph, all with their best uniforms! Note that the two with the rifles are the only ones with ammunition pouches, as they have been selected to serve as symbolic senties / guards! This one of the Landsturmer as a group is NOT the same as a studio photograph of an individual soldier, or two of them, with 'marching' equipment, and a rifle with a mismatched bayonet, chosen from a selection that was lying around in the photographers studio, as a 'farwell, off to war' studio photograph. Sometimes I want to bang your head together with Dimitrios' - you both seem to like to pick holes in each others posts! No need for it... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 (edited) I would only say, each piece should be exactly looked for conversion, as there exist many variation and majority of similar were done post 1875 on captured Chassepot bayonets, the stepped spine doesnt mean that all could be attached on G88 and the locking distance is important in similar cases. Believe all these conversions are WW1 is not correct for pictures You should look at Ruediger book and other german bayonet books, as there are aptierte Bajonette well described. Edited 17 May , 2022 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 12 minutes ago, AndyBsk said: ... You should look at Ruediger book and other german bayonet books, as there are aptierte Bajonette well described. Do you mean the Rudigger W.A.Franz book, five volumes, Preussicher-deutsche Seitengewehre? Idon't remember it saying anything about adapted bayonets in German service after 1871 or so! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 (edited) Should be in last published volume as in nr.IV are Chassepot M66 only unconverted, same as this should be in his short book that covers 1810-1918 period earlier published. Edited 17 May , 2022 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 9 minutes ago, AndyBsk said: Should be in last published volume as in nr.IV are Chassepot M66 only unconverted, same as this should be in his short book that covers 1810-1918 period earlier published. Volume 1... Pages 94-97. But these are all single stepped for Gew.71, 71/84, and 88., one version with an S,71 crossguard. He does not show any double-stepped one but they do exist... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 (edited) In the short version are mentioned various even more stepped version. To understand the conversion to Gew88 You should have done prolongate the locking distance, when not add a new ring into handle, should be removed the crossguard end and move the locking lug backside one way hidden from outside or otherway visible from outside. Gras and Chassepot have same lenght of handle. The 128 IR marked conversion are typical done for Lw/Lstm units prior 1880 with prolongated handle 10mm with older remain of french crossguard and added new S1871 crossguard, which brings the distance to 6mm from barell, only needed to flat the pommel spine stud area as the dimmension from french bayonet lug are different to Mauser ones. Could be used on Gew71, 71/84 and Gew88. Edited 17 May , 2022 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 (edited) But (if i see and understand it correct) those 2 bayonets (gras and chassepot with IS 71 crossguard), are totally different convertions, from double ot triple steps on the back side of the pommel, which is another convertion!!! Edited 17 May , 2022 by zuluwar2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Carter, volume 3, describes and illustrates 11 conversions of M.1866 bayonets for fitting to German rifles... And he was working with the help of German specialists... While AndyB is correct that to be certain we need to see each claimed conversion fitted to a Gew.71, 71/84, and 88, there is clearly no one single type of conversion that was approved for military use. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 (edited) Maybe Demitrios or Steve could proof the normal handle 3 stepped Chassepot M66 bayonets to attach on German rifles, which are presented here in various threads, Demitrios has the majority of converted bayonets and Steve has the excellent condition rifles, -there could be done conversion in handle of Chassepots that the locking lug tooth is moved backside and is not visible outside, so the possibility attach on Gew71 or Gew71/84 is real, mainly when the stepped area copied the front ring of rifle , there exist variation with additional lug or with prolongated handle,or with different model crossguard where is already the distance to barell body as the bayonet adapter is on front ring of rifle instead on barell body. -anyway a non prolongated bayonet handle of Chassepot M66 with barell ring directly positioned on handle wout any distances (origin french condition)could be not added on Gew88 because the barell jacket is over 20mm wide, the MRD 17,4 remains but is 6mm high over handle, thats the point. There should be masive remove of material of spine of handle and partly opening the backside of crossguard ring as visible on various pieces, or replace the crossguard As mentioned similar conversion were done for longer time not only WW1 and they are hard to destiny, even the DRGM marked crossguard were done for selling it on civilian market. I will not say that the Chassepots M66 were not converted to german rifles even in WW1 but there should be functionally conversion with good fixing of bayonet on rifle, even used by Landsturm and guarding or second line units, that all means various changes were done. Edited 17 May , 2022 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 17 May , 2022 Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Gentlemen, Apart from your discussion which has long missed the main topic ... I was ready to sell my German-modified Chessapot bayonets for a while, but I'll hold on - yet. For now, I will start collecting photos from the egun auction of the user who has a red background which is visible in the pictures of Dimitrios. He has a lot of ersatz Württemberg bayonets and various such interesting ... and white frog ... Julian knows what camman is about Just look for it so obvious Spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ersatz Posted 17 May , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2022 Rafal, you are correct by saying this "discussion has missed the main topic", which was supposed to be Paired Regimentals not conversions of Chassepot, etc. bayonet hilts. It seems that very often posts are hi-jacked and go off topic. It probably would be beneficial if the conversion topic had its own posting. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 18 May , 2022 Share Posted 18 May , 2022 Andy, you will just have to trust me, my Chssspot with extension and S.71 guard fit nice and tight to my M71. And M71/84. Be few weeks before get home to do more photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 18 May , 2022 Share Posted 18 May , 2022 I agree with Julian, the topic was “ Paired” unit or regiment bayonets. This Ersatz or not and all has hijacked the topic off corse Demitrio’s had a world class collection of rare version’s of bayonets and the largest collection of unit marked standard and modified and ersatz bayonets that I know! I am swamped right now, but For paired bayonets, Demitrios and myself together have a paired “set” of same Bavarian Infantry Regiment, just 2 companies apart, but these are perhaps in the top 3 RAREST type of German Bayonet. The S.71PFM Bavarian with the false edge and new/ oversized guard to mill out to fit flush with Gew.88 barrel jacket Demitrios, if you know how to add /splice? 2 photos together,Simply copy the one pic I posted and add with yours in a combo pic to show our “paired” bayonets, together This paired bayonets is a very fun topic, there are a lot of collectors in GWF. I hope more of you may add to it😊😊😊😊😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 18 May , 2022 Share Posted 18 May , 2022 Yes the part with Chassepot conversion could be moved by moderator to independent Thread when possible, as there was missed here the starting discussion. Steve i trust You that Chassepot with S71 crossguard could be add on Gew71 and 71/84 wout problem. Most real even on Gew88 when the distance to handle is minimum 6mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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