Paired Regimentals.................

[zuluwar2006]

Good morning Gents, 

Here is my 98/05 unit marked 164.R bayonet. 

Regards

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

And paired unit marked 98/05 bayonets, with wartime unit marking. 

The 1st bayonet 2.E.R.J.R.56.55 for the 56th Infantry Regiment Reserve. 

The 2nd similar unit marking 3.R.J.R.56.103

[AndyBsk]

The 164 R. is similar to already presented bayonets here. The RIR56 is on the last 2 samples, one probably from 3.company the second of 2. company of Ersatz Battalion of RIR56. The system of unit marking is similar, so probably done by the Regimental armorer. The digit of RIR was moved behind the designation of unit, not in front as normally it should be per prewar manuals, same size for all digits, so typical wartime unit.

Edited 14 May , 2022 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

A very rare pair for Guarde Jaeger unit marking. 

 

[zuluwar2006]

Mine saxon  28.A unit marked 98/05 bayonet. 

BELGIAN COMBLAIN CONVERTED FROM GERMANS, WITH ART. DEP. MAGD. UNIT MARKING

[zuluwar2006]

rare wartime pair unit marked

2nd ersatz Regiment No 55

[zuluwar2006]

Α pair of unit marked bayonets 98/05 for 11 Pioneer [Kurhessisches]  Ersatz Bataillon

11Pionneer Bataillon was raised on 1.3.1842 and was based in Hannover.

Edited 14 May , 2022 by zuluwar2006

[zuluwar2006]

1 hour ago, zuluwar2006 said:

rare wartime pair unit marked

2nd ersatz Regiment No 55

Αnd one more, for triple examples!!! 

[zuluwar2006]

An extremely rare war time pair of unit marked bayonets.

The 98/05 is nA sawback erased bayonet, with steel scabbard and frog, dated 1914.

L.A.R. 251.2.B.N.86

Lutschiffer Abteilung/Rekrutendepot 251, 2nd Bataillon

Dated on the spine 1916.

With flashguard. 

Manufacturer is Weysberg Kirshbaum and Co, Solingen

The second one is an ersatz bayonet. 

Both have been baught  from france. 

[AndyBsk]

Some of Your bayonets were already presented on this forum, the last one is Landwehr Feld Artillerie Regiment nr.251, 5.Battery and weapon nr. dont believe Luftschiffer used S98/05 bayonets more real KS98 or S84/98 in majority a Rekruten Depot could not have even 5 Company not a 5.Battalion.

By the unit 2E 55. 1K. xx i assume its typical for previous RIR marked pieces schema, and is for 2.Ersatz Battalion des IR nr.55, 1Kompany and weapon nr.xx

[zuluwar2006]

My contribution on unit marked ersatz bayonet for 40.A.

[zuluwar2006]

A very rare pair of unit marked ersatz bayonets, for wuttemberg Train Abteilung.

[AndyBsk]

 The Chassepot M66 is not a ersatz bayonet and question remains for what rifle it was changed to? As the locking lenght remains unchanged.

Edited 14 May , 2022 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

15 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Some of Your bayonets were already presented on this forum, the last one is Landwehr Feld Artillerie Regiment nr.251, 5.Battery and weapon nr. dont believe Luftschiffer used S98/05 bayonets more real KS98 or S84/98 in majority a Rekruten Depot could not have even 5 Company not a 5.Battalion.

By the unit 2E 55. 1K. xx i assume its typical for previous RIR marked pieces schema, and is for 2.Ersatz Battalion des IR nr.55, 1Kompany and weapon nr.xx

Official Bavarian instructions issued 15 March 1912 (on creation of Flieger units) specify the Gew.98 and the S.84/98 as the standard weapon for the Fliegerkompagnie. This is stated in an order (Nr 5533) which I don't have a complete copy of that discusses Luftschiffer equipment as well but which does not seem to name the specific bayonet that they used.

Rekruten Depot bayonets were indeed numbered consecutively.

Julian

 

[trajan]

13 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

 The Chassepot M66 is not a ersatz bayonet and question remains for what rifle it was changed to? As the locking lenght remains unchanged.

Stricto sensu (Με την αυστηρή έννοια / V užšom slova zmysle), Andy is quite right - Beutewaffen are not ersatz... We have to Dangre for this confusion and Carter and Williams also for following him in listing / classifying altered beute waffen with Ersatz! 

In his seminal work, Dangre starts the relevant section with the title 'Bayonnettes 'ersatz' allemands'. He then discusses how in 1914-1918, the Germans manufactured considererable numbers of bayonets, 'in particular' (principalement) ersatz' bayonets. He then goes on to separate his discussion on the ersatz bayonets into two categories: 'A ... ersatz bayonets of German origin' for the Gew. 88 and 98 and 'certain types of foreign rifles'; and 'B ... foreign bayonets adapted to fit German rifles'. I don't think he listed captured bayonets used with their original rifles...

Julian   

[zuluwar2006]

4 hours ago, trajan said:

Stricto sensu (Με την αυστηρή έννοια / V užšom slova zmysle), Andy is quite right - Beutewaffen are not ersatz... We have to Dangre for this confusion and Carter and Williams also for following him in listing / classifying altered beute waffen with Ersatz! 

In his seminal work, Dangre starts the relevant section with the title 'Bayonnettes 'ersatz' allemands'. He then discusses how in 1914-1918, the Germans manufactured considererable numbers of bayonets, 'in particular' (principalement) ersatz' bayonets. He then goes on to separate his discussion on the ersatz bayonets into two categories: 'A ... ersatz bayonets of German origin' for the Gew. 88 and 98 and 'certain types of foreign rifles'; and 'B ... foreign bayonets adapted to fit German rifles'. I don't think he listed captured bayonets used with their original rifles...

Julian   

Dear Julian,

This converted CHASSEPOT 1866 BAYONET, WITH A TRIPLE STEPPED HILT, is suitable TO ADJUST ON A GEWEHR 88 RIFLE.

UNALLTERED MUZZLE RING.

THESE ALTERATIONS ALLOWED THE CROSSGUARD TO FIT OVER THE MUZZLE, THE BACK OF THE HILT TO SIT CLOSE AGAINST THE BARREL JACKET, AND THE POMMEL TO SLIDE OVER THE GEWEHR'S 88 SHORT attachment bar.

unit markings are extremely rare to see on this modification.

only 7 speciments have been catalogued until today.

Unit marking for 13th Train Abteilung, 1st Ersatz Abteilung

13th Train Abteilung = the Wurrtembergische Train Abteilung

It was raised on 20.10.1871

stationned at Ludwigsburg. 

We have seen a lot of werder bayonets with this mofification and several chassepots with a variety of stepped hilts, without alteration on the muzzle ring. 

Meaning of ersatz bayonet, is now quite common for both cases you are reffering above. 

Regards

D. 

 

[zuluwar2006]

A very rare pair. 

Chassepot bayonets converted. Brass hilt cut in one step 42 mm from the back of the hilt to a depth of 3 mm.

the hilt and original crossguard completely remooved and the guard reshaped to match the base of the brass hilt.

The guard re-fitted with the secondary rivet placed and a new "S" shaped crossguard for the IS M/71, with a full muzzle ring rivetted throught the blade, reverse of the crossguard.

unit marking for the 128 Infantry Regiment = Danziger Infanterie Regiment No. 128

[zuluwar2006]

5 hours ago, trajan said:

Official Bavarian instructions issued 15 March 1912 (on creation of Flieger units) specify the Gew.98 and the S.84/98 as the standard weapon for the Fliegerkompagnie. This is stated in an order (Nr 5533) which I don't have a complete copy of that discusses Luftschiffer equipment as well but which does not seem to name the specific bayonet that they used.

Rekruten Depot bayonets were indeed numbered consecutively.

Julian

 

Here are some photos from another 98/05 bayonet for flieger abteilung.

It is correct that no specific bayonet is named for use, so they could use any available bayonet was in production. That make sense, especially during a war. 

Regards

D. 

[ersatz]

20 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

My contribution on unit marked ersatz bayonet for 40.A.

It looks like our two 88/98 Ersatz sawbacks with 40.A.4B. were in the trenches together.  Only 6 waffe nr's apart.  

[zuluwar2006]

2 minutes ago, ersatz said:

It looks like our two 88/98 Ersatz sawbacks with 40.A.4B. were in the trenches together.  Only 6 waffe nr's apart.  

Brothers in arms!!! 

[ersatz]

Thank you to ALL contributors for sharing your paired regimentals, and information!   It is a pleasure to see such a variety of markings and weapons.  I hope the topic will continue with more additions.  ersatz/TED

[AndyBsk]

 

Question to Demitrios, anyone sucessfully attached or added the Chassepot M66 with 13 TB on Gew88??, as the handle is not prolongated so the fixing would be problematic, is not enough to remove part of spine even 3 stepped doesnt mean it could be attached on G88.

Secondly FA as a Flieger Abteilung could be wrongly declared more it could be Festungs Artillerie unit. The wings emblem could be added later, that means after 100 years nothing. There is Noll and other literature that dont confirm any S98/05 on aviation troops, anyway some exception could be realised offcoarse. 

The converted Chassepots with prolongated  handles were already prepared for Gew71 , mainly by DRGM marked crossguard, which was done already around switch of the century and was saled on civilian market, is not a WW1 ersatz bayonet.

Edited 15 May , 2022 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Andy, 

FA with wings, indicate the unit marking for Flieger Abteilung. 

Prolongated handles were made and in the begining of ww1. There was great necessity to have every soldier a rifle and a bayonet so 71 and 71/84 rifles were given to troops with converted chassepot bayonets. 

That was common practice and for Gew 88, with converted chassepot bayonets. 

I do not have a Gew 88 to fix it. But i think Roy categorized this for Gew 88 (i must seek my notes). 

Look and those examples of converted chassepots with one and 2 steps, with one step is suitable  for 71 and 71/84, but muzzle ring is also unaltered, so this practice was something common for the armourers, not a unique example. 

Regards

D. 

 

Edited 15 May , 2022 by zuluwar2006

[AndyBsk]

Unfortunally You and many other collectors are not right on this as You never proof it on real rifle, bayonet is only a part of rifle not more, and bayonet collectors wout knowledge of rifles and models have only 50% of information. A non prolongated handle of Chassepot could be not attached on Gew71 or Gew88, that was removed a spine of blade doesnt mean it could be succesfully attached on this rifle, the 3.Garde Landwehr Regiment was used on a adapted Chassepot rifle for  M71 cartridge and it was long ago before the WW1. See Rudiger. Similar as here presented Werder bayonet in middle even one long step on spine it could be not attached on a Gew71 or Gew71/84 as wrongly declared by Mery as this change is for M1869 n.M because of the bayonet adapter was moved from barell body to first ring of buttstock, similar was probably done by Chassepots that were not prolongated but were reworked to new Mauser M71 cartridges and had shortened buttstock and barell and the bayonet adapter was moved to first ring, so it should be have distance from barell, they removed part of handle spine. All similar conversions were done already prior 1882 as the bayonets are captured by germans in Franco German war 1870/71.

Locking distance of Chassepot is 90mm and locking distance of Gew71 , Gew71/84 Gew88 are 99/100mm. So without prolongated handle or added additional locking lug in pommel You shouldnt attach completely the bayonet on similar rifles. When You even remove 4 mm from crossguard You must prolongate locking lengh with additional locking lug behind the real one with thickness minimum of 5mm to became Chassepot M66 on a Gew71.

 

Edited 15 May , 2022 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

A good friend send me some photos with same model bayonets. So this converted chassepot bayonet, was converted and delivered to ww1 german troops indeed without altering the muzzle ring. 

For sure this bayonet can be attached on 71 and 71/84 rifles, with unaltered muzzle ring, as we see on photos. Question is if it can be attached on Gew 88, this i will try it and show it with photos. But this model did existed and served during ww1. 

Regards

D. 

Edited 16 May , 2022 by zuluwar2006