Fromelles Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Reading between the lines I think that a close watch must have been kept on regulations and administrative instructions from Britain with a general recognition that all would wear a similar uniform and with a desire for recognition of inclusion, ‘universal’ very neatly became ‘commonwealth’. I think you'll find 'Commonwealth' is in reference to the Commonwealth of Australia. Commonwealth Pattern (CP) was in common use when it came to uniforms and equipment used at that time. Here are some examples - Though Australia generally equiped itself with British designed equipment, it also included its own bits into the mix. 2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: The rank aspect doesn’t surprise me overly as there had been a lot of dithering in Britain about cuff rank, which was not welcomed. Shoulder rank was well established and understood and seen throughout the Boer War and I imagine that Australia and other Dominions were waiting to see what was decided. In the event the original design of cuff rank was so derided as “watercress” and changed within a year, so that by the time war commenced Australia perhaps couldn’t see the point in changing from what they already had that was universally recognised and still being used by the Guards and General Officers in Britain anyway. In addition Australia, with its enormous resources of sheep wool, was also beginning to develop its own ideas for a field uniform that took the best design features from the officers and soldiers pattern used in Britain, and combined them into a uniform suitable for all their forces committed to overseas (Imperial) service. I assume you're referring to my comments about the use of cuff rank on the other thread. I agree, though influenced by Britain, Australia also wanted to be able to set itself apart and went its own way on certain aspects of uniform. My reaction to an Australian Malitia officer wearing cuff rank was only in response to the fact that Australia never adopted cuff rank. It doesn't really surprise me that officer's uniforms would have been influenced by Imperial officers on exchange in Australia or what the latest trends were from abroad. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Fromelles said: I think you'll find 'Commonwealth' is in reference to the Commonwealth of Australia. Commonwealth Pattern (CP) was in common use when it came to uniforms and equipment used at that time. Here are some examples - Though Australia generally equiped itself with British designed equipment, it also included its own bits into the mix. I assume you're referring to my comments about the use of cuff rank on the other thread. I agree, though influenced by Britain, Australia also wanted to be able to set itself apart and went its own way on certain aspects of uniform. My reaction to an Australian Malitia officer wearing cuff rank was only in response to the fact that Australia never adopted cuff rank. It doesn't really surprise me that officer's uniforms would have been influenced by Imperial officers on exchange in Australia or what the latest trends were from abroad. Dan Agreed on all points Dan. Upon reflection the term Commonwealth almost certainly relates specifically to Australia, as I don’t think it was widely used elsewhere at the time. The jackets only difference though appears to be the absence of cuff rank though, albeit I cannot see the rear to know whether they retained the broad vertical pleat down the centre of the back that had been a feature in 1902 but abandoned on the revised British universal pattern in 1911. Edited 5 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, damianb said: To throw a spanner in the works please find below pics of a WW1 NZ Mounted Rifles officers tunic with both cuff & shoulder rank. Shoulder rank looks old as does the cuff rank Cuff rank worn with shoulder rank does crop up in period photos occasionally. Canada seems to be another country that did it more commonly. The more common practice seems to be to keep the braid on the sleeve but to only wear the one set of actual rank on the shoulders, eg:: Edited 5 September , 2022 by Andrew Upton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: The jackets only difference though appears to be the absence of cuff rank though, albeit I cannot see the rear to know whether they retained the broad vertical pleat down the centre of the back that had been a feature in 1902 but abandoned on the revised British universal pattern in 1911. What do you make of the collar badges? Edited 5 September , 2022 by Fromelles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said: Cuff rank worn with shoulder rank does crop up in period photos occasionally. Canada seems to be another country that did it more commonly. The more common practice seems to be to keep the braid on the sleeve but to only wear the one set of actual rank on the shoulders, eg:: I’ve seen that mentioned many times before and it doesn’t really count, as the cuff rank is not shown in full and thus doesn’t constitute rank. It’s really just the vestige of cuff rank that was placed on as standard by the military tailor in preparation for the purchasers most common initial rank upon becoming commissioned (hence the single ring). The idea presumably being that the purchaser would add either, one or two rank stars, depending on any backdated seniority. The NZ and RND examples are entirely different because they each incorporate full rank markings both on cuffs and shoulder straps. Edited 5 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Fromelles said: What do you make of the collar badges? It’s the same illustration taken direct from the Dress Regulations 1911 (1913 amendment), Dan. Staff Officers gorget on one side and Queen’s (Royal West Surrey) Regiment on the other. Edited 5 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s the same illustration taken direct from the Dress Regulations 1911, Dan. Staff Officers gorget on one side and Queen’s (Royal West Surrey) Regiment on the other. Yes, I thought is was a gorget on one side and Brit badge on the other. The illustration is from the Standing Orders for Dress 1912 & 1918 Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Fromelles said: Yes, I thought is was a gorget on one side and Brit badge on the other. The illustration is from the Standing Orders for Dress 1912 & 1918 Dan What was the image publication date, because it was published in Britain in 1913? Although the amendment was playing catch up for a change that was already underway since the year before. Edited 5 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 The illustration comes from the 1918 (revised to 31 Dec 18) publication. Sounds a bit dodgy, same pics but repackaged as being an Aussie pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Fromelles said: The illustration comes from the 1918 (revised to 31 Dec 18) publication. Sounds a bit dodgy, same pics but repackaged as being an Aussie pattern. Yes I’m certain that’s the case Dan, as the photos are absolutely identical and distributed by means of the 1913 amendment to 1911 Dress Regulations (which had originally still shown the 1902 type). Edited 5 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 Here's the description of the jacket, I'm sure there won't be a difference to what's in the Dress Regulations, maybe it was the fact that Australia didn't use cuff rank is why it's referred to as being CP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Fromelles said: Here's the description of the jacket, I'm sure there won't be a difference to what's in the Dress Regulations, maybe it was the fact that Australia didn't use cuff rank is why it's referred to as being CP The wording is almost 100% identical to the 1913 amendment Dan, except that it commences with an opening caveat: “Drab mixture serge; of the same colour as that of the men” before launching into “single-breasted”… It concludes after your final sentence with: “Delete line 26 and add at end of para - Collar badges are worn on the collar above the step by officers of services for which collar badges are authorised, except when holding any of the appointments mentioned in para 138, when gorget patches (para 29a) are substituted.” I agree that the only difference between the Commonwealth and Universal patterns is that the former has shoulder rank, just as in the Imperial Foot Guards, although the latter have an entirely different pattern of service dress uniform (i.e. both cloth and cut). Edited 5 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 I'm thinking, by 1918, the reference to this jacket as being Commonwealth Pattern may have its origins from previous patterns of jacket, and has just continued in the same vein. From the Orders for Dress and Clothing, 1906 - ... and Standing Orders for Dress, 1912 - Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 September , 2022 Share Posted 5 September , 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Fromelles said: I'm thinking, by 1918, the reference to this jacket as being Commonwealth Pattern may have its origins from previous patterns of jacket, and has just continued in the same vein. From the Orders for Dress and Clothing, 1906 - ... and Standing Orders for Dress, 1912 - Dan Yes I think that you’re right Dan, it seems to be a term used to identify Australian, as in - the Commonwealth of Australia. This has been interesting to tease out and clarify. Thank you for posting. For your interest I enclose a particularly fine photograph of SD with cuff rank. The officer shown was KIA in an 8-hour bombardment of his battalion’s trench line (followed by infantry assault) in the spring of 1916, not very long after he joined his battalion. Edited 5 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 Very nice photo, however it needs to be flipped as everything is on the wrong side Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Fromelles said: Very nice photo, however it needs to be flipped as everything is on the wrong side Dan Indeed it is. That is how it was at source. It’s an interesting view of a cap cover too. Edited 6 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 (edited) Hello Frogsmile, With reference to your post of 7th May, here is a rarely seen variation of the cuff rank uniform jacket from my collection, which was tailored without shoulder straps. It originally belonged to Major H.J.N. De Salis, O.B.E., ( later Lt.Col ) of the Royal Engineers (Submarine Miners). It was privately tailored by G. E. Carrington, Tailor & Military Outfitters, Carlton House, Regent Street, London S.W., and is named to Major H. De Salis. My understanding, is that because at the time it was tailored, there was no rank insignia designated for the shoulder straps, it was open for Major De Salis to exercise his option not to have them fitted purely for his personal choice, which clearly went unchallenged, as he wore the jacket without shoulder straps until he left the Army in December 1922 as a Lt.Col. Lt.Col., H. De Salis O.B.E., had a distinguished military career in the Royal Engineers 1901/1922 and served overseas during WW1 (3 Overseas Chevrons) both in France and Flanders working on Tunnel projects, including a Military O.B.E. The jacket dates from 1915/16 when he was a Major. Thorough examination of the jacket, shows that there is absolutely no evidence of the jacket ever having shoulder straps fitted which were later removed. Kind regards, LF Edited 6 September , 2022 by Lancashire Fusilier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Lancashire Fusilier said: Hello Frogsmile, With reference to your post of 7th May, here is a rarely seen variation of the cuff rank uniform jacket from my collection, which was tailored without shoulder straps. It originally belonged to Major H.J.N. De Salis, O.B.E., ( later Lt.Col ) of the Royal Engineers (Submarine Miners). It was privately tailored by G. E. Carrington, Tailor & Military Outfitters, Carlton House, Regent Street, London S.W., and is named to Major H. De Salis. My understanding, is that because at the time it was tailored, there was no rank insignia designated for the shoulder straps, it was open for Major De Salis to exercise his option not to have them fitted purely for his personal choice, which clearly went unchallenged, as he wore the jacket without shoulder straps until he left the Army in December 1922 as a Lt.Col. Lt.Col., H. De Salis O.B.E., had a distinguished military career in the Royal Engineers 1901/1922 and served overseas during WW1 (3 Overseas Chevrons) both in France and Flanders working on Tunnel projects, including a Military O.B.E. The jacket dates from 1915/16 when he was a Major. Thorough examination of the jacket, shows that there is absolutely no evidence of the jacket ever having shoulder straps fitted which were later removed. Kind regards, LF Hello old friend. I definitely recall seeing that jacket before, but I’m not sure whether it was in this forum. You make an interesting point about the shoulder straps, and although it’s true that they were unnecessary for rank, it’s also true that it goes against dress regulations to not have them. The reason I suppose was because if an officer was promoted above field rank then he was obliged to wear his new rank on the shoulder straps. That said, it was a field uniform and by the wars end many officers maintained two service dress uniforms, one for in the trenches that not uncommonly featured leather reinforcement to the cuffs and sometimes leather buttons too, which I think might chime with your sapper officer’s jacket, although not necessarily. The other, which one might describe as ‘best’, was usually as per regulation for the corps concerned and used for time out on rest and trips into Amiens, or even Paris, as well as any visits to his unit by senior officers and other VIPs when his unit was expected to put on a good show. Edited 6 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 1917 period MGC jacket named to Lt Oliver with both cuff and shoulder rank, the latter seemingly there forever. Leather cuff trimmings and the interior quite heavily worn suggesting it'd done a bit. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Hello old friend. I definitely recall seeing that jacket before, but I’m not sure whether it was in this forum. You make an interesting point about the shoulder straps, and although it’s true that they were unnecessary for rank, it’s also true that it goes against dress regulations to not have them. The reason I suppose was because if an officer was promoted above field rank then he was obliged to wear his new rank on the shoulder straps. That said, it was a field uniform and by the wars end many officers maintained two service dress uniforms, one for in the trenches that not uncommonly featured leather reinforcement to the cuffs and sometimes leather buttons too, which I think might chime with your sapper officer’s jacket, although not necessarily. The other, which one might describe as ‘best’, was usually as per regulation for the corps concerned and used for time out on rest and trips into Amiens, or even Paris, as well as any visits to his unit by senior officers and other VIPs when his unit was expected to put on a good show. Some time ago, I sent you photographs of this jacket via GWF PM, so that is where you have seen it before. Kind regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 7 minutes ago, Lancashire Fusilier said: Some time ago, I sent you photographs of this jacket via GWF PM, so that is where you have seen it before. Kind regards, LF Ah I see. I knew I had seen it before. A fine artefact to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Grovetown said: 1917 period MGC jacket named to Lt Oliver with both cuff and shoulder rank, the latter seemingly there forever. Leather cuff trimmings and the interior quite heavily worn suggesting it'd done a bit. Cheers, GT. That’s the best example I’ve seen of double ranking I think. Do you know his history, was he commissioned directly into the MGC? Edited 6 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: That’s the best example I’ve seen of double ranking I think. Do you know his history, was he commissioned directly into the MGC? Yes direct into MGC. Gazetted 10-05-17, seniority from 26-04-17. Have LG, MIC, rolls and 1911 census, but no great details otherwise. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 28 minutes ago, Grovetown said: 1917 period MGC jacket named to Lt Oliver with both cuff and shoulder rank, the latter seemingly there forever. Leather cuff trimmings and the interior quite heavily worn sugge Great jacket, the matching patina on the collar insignia and the shoulder 'pip' is particularly nice to see. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 September , 2022 Share Posted 6 September , 2022 3 minutes ago, Grovetown said: Yes direct into MGC. Gazetted 10-05-17, seniority from 26-04-17. Have LG, MIC, rolls and 1911 census, but no great details otherwise. Cheers, GT. Thanks, it’s a great survival, the outside is perhaps testimony to the quality of the cloth, which appears to be a woollen twill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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