Cuff and Epaulette ranks

[tankengine888]

Hello!
I always see British officers with cuff ranks [below Colonel] and having shoulder [epaulette] ranks above that rank. Australian officers seem to have a difference, specifically only epaulette ranks yet I sometimes see cuff rank.
If anyone can clarify the reasons or direct me to a post I missed, that would be very nice.

[FROGSMILE]

On 07/05/2022 at 16:03, tankengine888 said:

Hello!
I always see British officers with cuff ranks [below Colonel] and having shoulder [epaulette] ranks above that rank. Australian officers seem to have a difference, specifically only epaulette ranks yet I sometimes see cuff rank.
If anyone can clarify the reasons or direct me to a post I missed, that would be very nice.

General officers (i.e. those above the rank of full colonel) and the Foot Guards regiments (Grenadiers, Coldstream, etcetera) were excluded from the cuff rank that was introduced as part of the new service dress, in 1902, and never used it.  

The same two categories also adopted an open, stepped collar jacket with soft shirt and tie in preference to the closed collar obligatory for everyone else.  This remained the case until 1912, when the shirt and tie style was adopted by all, leaving just the sergeant major (of battalion) with a closed collar.

There was a perception that officers with cuff rank were too distinctive and being picked off by German marksmen and snipers and some (not all) battalions opted to wear the Guards style shoulder rank, with the approval of their commanding officers.  After the 1916 Somme battles especially the shoulder rank became increasingly more common, not least due its popularity with war-raised units and battalions from the Dominions.  

By 1917-18 there was a great mix of the two methods within infantry divisions and by the end of the war even within the same unit. Shoulder rank continued to be ‘optional’ until the early 1920s, when cuff rank was finally abolished.  A number of line infantry battalions of the regular army never approved the wear of shoulder rank.

Edited 6 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

39 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

General officers and the Foot Guards regiments were excluded from the cuff rank that was introduced as part of the new service dress, in 1902, and never used it.  They both also adopted an open stepped collar with soft shirt and tie in preference to the closed collar obligatory for everyone else.  This remained the case until 1912 when the shirt and tie style was adopted by all, leaving just the sergeant major (of battalion) with a closed collar.

There was a perception that officers with cuff rank were too distinctive and being picked off by German marksmen and snipers and some (not all) battalions opted to wear the Guards style shoulder rank, with the approval of their commanding officers.  After the 1916 Somme battles especially the shoulder rank became increasingly more common, not least due its popularity with war-raised units and battalions from the Dominions.  This meant that by 1917-18 there was a great mix of the two methods within infantry divisions and by the end of the war even within the same unit. Shoulder rank continued to be ‘optional’ until the early 1920s, when cuff rank was finally abolished.  A number of line infantry battalions of the regular army never approved the wear of shoulder rank.

Half gibberish half of it makes sense... 2:14AM but I got the main jist of it, thanks for it! 

Note: would've thought shoulder rank would've been more deadly

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Half gibberish half of it makes sense... 2:14AM but I got the main jist of it, thanks for it! 

Note: would've thought shoulder rank would've been more deadly

When you wake up you can ask questions about the bits that you find “gibberish” and I’ll endeavour to explain them.  

Cuffs tend to be seen at waist level, where they may be e.g. holding a pistol, or gesticulating, by an enemy often with his head at ground level in a trench or MG emplacement and observing at a slightly upward angle.  He is less likely to see the tops of shoulders, especially if equipment is being worn over shoulder straps. 

Edited 7 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

On 07/05/2022 at 17:38, FROGSMILE said:

Cuffs tend to be seen at waist level, where they may be e.g. holding a pistol, or gesticulating, by an enemy often with his head at ground level in a trench or MG emplacement and observing at a slightly upward angle.  He is less likely to see the tops of shoulders, especially if equipment is being worn over shoulder straps. 

Make scene to me! Thanks FROGSMILE. Now, here is one that occurred to me from a previous post (weeks back now about Brigadier rank) and also can be linked to this thread. The chevrons that make up a corporal or sergeants stripes are made up from small chevrons along their length and the cuff rank borders on the officers are made up from the same small chevrons. Why is this/where does this originate from? One of those things one sees but never questions. Regards, Bob.

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Make scene to me! Thanks FROGSMILE. Now, here is one that occurred to me from a previous post (weeks back now about Brigadier rank) and also can be linked to this thread. The chevrons that make up a corporal or sergeants stripes are made up from small chevrons along their length and the cuff rank borders on the officers are made up from the same small chevrons. Why is this/where does this originate from? One of those things one sees but never questions. Regards, Bob.

It was a type of drab khaki “herringbone” tape introduced in 1902 at the same time as the universal service dress.  Originally intended for the stripes, both rank and good conduct, it also replaced the red on white hitherto used for khaki drill uniform.  In November 1902 it became the tape used for replacing the original officer ranking design, which had been ridiculed as ‘watercress’ like when proposed in the February.  As well as made up (pre cut) for the various NCO ranks, it was also available through the ordnance supply chain in simple rolls of tape for use by regimental tailors.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It was a type of drab khaki “herringbone” tape introduced in 1902 at the same time as the universal service dress.  Originally intended for the stripes, both rank and good conduct, it also replaced the red on white hitherto used for khaki drill uniform.  In November 1902 it became the tape used for replacing the original officer ranking design, which had been ridiculed as ‘watercress’ like when proposed in the February.  As well as made up (pre cut) for the various NCO ranks, it was also available through the ordnance supply chain in simple rolls of tape for use by regimental tailors.

Thank you for your explanation FROGSMILE. It is appreciated.

[damianb]

Hi, did they ever wear both cuff & collar rank on the same tunic at the same time? 

[FROGSMILE]

On 15/05/2022 at 10:00, damianb said:

Hi, did they ever wear both cuff & collar rank on the same tunic at the same time? 

Not usually no.  The closest to that practice was the unique policy of the 63rd Royal Naval Division, where the Royal Navy officers fighting in khaki as infantry wore naval style rank comprising rings (with executive curls for combatant officers) on their cuffs, plus Army style rank stars on their shoulder straps.   Similarly NCOs/Senior Ratings had Army rank on their right arm and naval rank on their left arm.

Edited 16 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Lovely photo of the young RND Lt.  I wonder if he made it.

"It was a type of drab khaki “herringbone” tape"

In the mid 50s REME the more regimental types used to white blanco the middle line of each stripe.  I preferred them ungarnished!

 

[Andrew Upton]

On 15/05/2022 at 10:00, damianb said:

Hi, did they ever wear both cuff & collar rank on the same tunic at the same time? 

A trait which crops up occasionally and appears to be more closely associated with Colonial forces (Canada in particular) was the wearing of the braid for the rank on the cuffs still but wearing (usually metal) rank on the epaulettes instead, eg:

[FROGSMILE]

These are in effect shoulder rank and incomplete ranking on the cuffs, but with the correct single ring to show the subaltern grouping.  They do appear more commonly among officers of the Dominion of Canada it’s true, which along with Australia, New Zealand and South Africa hadn’t been a colony for some time.  It’s an unusual jacket in the older style at top, with closed collar and much shallower skirt pockets. 

Edited 16 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[QUEX]

On 07/05/2022 at 17:38, FROGSMILE said:

When you wake up you can ask questions about the bits that you find “gibberish” and I’ll endeavour to explain them.  

Cuffs tend to be seen at waist level, where they may be e.g. holding a pistol, or gesticulating, by an enemy often with his head at ground level in a trench or MG emplacement and observing at a slightly upward angle.  He is less likely to see the tops of shoulders, especially if equipment is being worn over shoulder straps. 

 

 

Do my eyes deceive me, or is that Carne VC?

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, QUEX said:

Do my eyes deceive me, or is that Carne VC?

No you’re quite right, they’re both VCs, the other Godfrey Chavasse, I chose the images regardless of era and merely as the best I could find to depict a shoulder and cuff rank comparison given the similarity in their postures.

Edited 16 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[scottmarchand]

With respect to Canada this was correct uniform pattern from 1902-1914. The cuff panels were blank. They harmonized with the BEF after mobilization for war.

[tankengine888]

I was gonna make a new thread but I suppose it’s applicable here. 
 

Lieutenant Colonel William ‘Molly’ Malone, appears to wear a British Private tunic in this photo

 

but it is missing those 2 bits sewed on via the shoulder (usually on a British tunic), really noticeable but not here. But I wonder what tunic he is wearing and how did Cuff ranks get on a uniform

regards.

[FROGSMILE]

On 17/05/2022 at 06:04, tankengine888 said:

I was gonna make a new thread but I suppose it’s applicable here. 
 

Lieutenant Colonel William ‘Molly’ Malone, appears to wear a British Private tunic in this photo

 

but it is missing those 2 bits sewed on via the shoulder (usually on a British tunic), really noticeable but not here. But I wonder what tunic he is wearing and how did Cuff ranks get on a uniform

regards.

That is a very fine photo of the original officers pattern 1902 drab service dress.  For a period there were slip on shoulder straps with coloured piping indicating the arm of service, but a slightly later version was that shown in your photo with twisted shoulder cords.  It had 5-buttons and the closed collar that you see until 1912 and was cut shorter in the skirt than the later version, with 4-buttons used commonly throughout WW1, with shallower bellowed pockets as a result.  It also had a distinctive, broad vertical pleat down the centre of the back that was omitted from the later version.

 

 

 

Edited 6 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

On 17/05/2022 at 16:19, FROGSMILE said:

That is a very fine photo of the original officers pattern 1902 drab service dress.  For a period there were slip on shoulder straps with coloured piping indicating the arm of service, but a slightly later version was that shown in your photo with twisted shoulder cords.  It had 5-buttons and the closed collar that you see until 1912 and was cut shorter in the skirt than the later version, with 4-buttons used commonly throughout WW1, with shallower bellowed pockets as a result.  It also had a distinctive, broad vertical pleat down the centre of the back that was omitted from the later version.

 

 

Hello Frogsmile,

Did the Australian Imperial Force use it? I assume not (since I've never seen it anywhere except on Malone) but I'd still like to know (with example if possible), 

TTFN!

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Hello Frogsmile,

Did the Australian Imperial Force use it? I assume not (since I've never seen it anywhere except on Malone) but I'd still like to know (with example if possible), 

TTFN!

I don’t think so, not as a general issue.  I understand that the Australian Dominion government took particular pride in equipping it’s Imperial Force** troops with a high quality uniform of their own design, albeit with some common features as that of the British motherland, not least because lessons learned in the 2nd Boer War informed both types.  The fact that Australia had access to such fine stocks of sheep wool probably played a part in the high quality of the cloth used.  The occasional wearing of British uniform seems to have been a case of only when needs must (i.e. dictated by local circumstances and associated supply problems).

NB.  However, when out of the line or employed in formation level headquarters the Australian officers and Generals did wear British style service dress with the rank on shoulder straps as previously mentioned.

There is an excellent explanation of AIF uniform at the time of WW1 here: http://www.greatwarassociation.com/regs-australian.html

**i.e. those committed to service overseas rather than home defence.

Edited 25 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Fromelles]

Since at least 1912 the Officers Commonwealth Pattern Jacket (step collar) had been authorised for wear.

The older stand and fall collar type officers jacket could still be worn under certain circumstances (eg Inactive, Reserve or Retired officers) and can occasionally be seen being worn during the war, particularly prior to embarkation.

Dan

Edited 4 September , 2022 by Fromelles

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Fromelles said:

Since at least 1912 the Officers Commonwealth Pattern Jacket (step collar) had been authorised for wear.

The older stand and fall collar type officers jacket could still be worn under certain circumstances (eg Inactive, Reserve or Retired officers) and can occasionally be seen being worn) during the war (particularly prior to embarkation.

Dan

As you can see further up the thread it had been pattern sealed in general on 19th August 1912. The military link with the Dominions was already strong and many of the basic administrative regulations were common for sound reasons. 

Edited 3 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Fromelles]

On 03/09/2022 at 17:12, FROGSMILE said:

As you can see further up the thread it had been pattern sealed in general on 19th August 1912. The military link with the Dominions was already strong and many of the basic administrative regulations were common for sound reasons. 

Yet it was referred to as being a 'Commonwealth Pattern' jacket which seems peculiar 

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Fromelles said:

Yet it was referred to as being a 'Commonwealth Pattern' jacket which seems peculiar 

In the original British dress regulations in which it was introduced it was described as the “Universal Servive Dress” and it’s design had evolved from the uniforms used in the  2nd Anglo/Boer War, where as you know strong contingents came from Canada, the Antipodes and various parts of Southern Africa to join with Britain and create a unified force under Imperial command.  In many respects it was something of a dress rehearsal in terms of mobilisation and volunteering for what was to come in 1914.  In Australia’s case it also followed on relatively closely from the creation of their Citizen Force and compulsory military service for men and boys.  Reading between the lines I think that a close watch must have been kept on regulations and administrative instructions from Britain with a general recognition that all would wear a similar uniform and with a desire for recognition of inclusion, ‘universal’ very neatly became ‘commonwealth’.

The rank aspect doesn’t surprise me overly as there had been a lot of dithering in Britain about cuff rank, which was not welcomed.  Shoulder rank was well established and understood and seen throughout the Boer War and I imagine that Australia and other Dominions were waiting to see what was decided.  In the event the original design of cuff rank was so derided as “watercress” and changed within a year, so that by the time war commenced Australia perhaps couldn’t see the point in changing from what they already had that was universally recognised and still being used by the Guards and General Officers in Britain anyway.  In addition Australia, with its enormous resources of sheep wool, was also beginning to develop its own ideas for a field uniform that took the best design features from the officers and soldiers pattern used in Britain, and combined them into a uniform suitable for all their forces committed to overseas (Imperial) service.

Edited 5 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[damianb]

To throw a spanner in the works please find below pics of a WW1 NZ Mounted Rifles officers tunic with both cuff & shoulder rank. Shoulder rank looks old as does the cuff rank

More can pics

Edited 5 September , 2022 by damianb

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting to see and it certainly looks quite incongruous, he clearly wanted everyone to see his status!  I wonder if that was standard practice across the regiment.  The officers of the 63rd Royal Naval Infantry Division did something a little similar, in that they wore RN style rank on their cuffs, via drab lace rings, and Army rank stars, etc. on their shoulder straps.