Gustrow POW Camp

[Clodagh2]

Hi!

I'm researching Edward Fayle (S.I.H 1555, 7/R.Ir.Reg 25320) who's a relative.  Edward is remembered at Tyne Cot panel 52a.  He was captured on 21st of March in Ronssoy and was recorded as being a POW in Gustrow on 10.07.1918.  Edward died of Spanish sickness between 18-31st of August 1918.  I know that Gustrow was a distribution camp for other camps so Edward may have been passing through Gustrow (although, Edward is not recorded in any other camps). 

I'm just wondering has anyone else come across an outbreak of Spanish Flu in Gustrow circa August 1918?

Kindest regards,

Clodagh Lennon

[AOK4]

It's probably again one of those POWs that were still on the Western Front working for the Germans. I don't seem to find him on the Red Cross website? Perhaps @charlie2 can find the card?

Anyway, it's not logical for him to be on the Tyne Cot Memorial. British POWs working in Flanders after being captured in France doesn't make sense. The Germans in Flanders were exchanging their allied POWs from 1918 with other armies for Belgian civilian laborers in return (a political move to try to appease the Flemish population).

Jan

[Acknown]

Here's the entry: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/5523810/698/29024/. There is also an extensive life story on Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/167323823/person/412296437364/facts?_phsrc=cWB133&_phstart=successSource.

Acknown

Addition: Try this link for the Ancestry life story: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/?name=edward_fayle&event=_dublin-ireland_5302&birth=1887&count=50&father=william&name_x=psi_s

Edited 6 May , 2022 by Acknown

[AOK4]

7 minutes ago, Acknown said:

Here's the entry: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/5523810/698/29024/. There is also an extensive life story on Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/167323823/person/412296437364/facts?_phsrc=cWB133&_phstart=successSource.

Acknown

That is just one entry from the Red Cross files, do you have the link to his index card?

I can't see the story on ancestry unfortunately.

[Clodagh2]

No! I could not find him on the Red Cross site either but his record is in Findmypast (don't think I'm allowed post here, copyright?).  Edward is remembered at Tyne Cot whether logical or not, I have wondered about this as he was in Germany when he died.  I don't understand the criteria for memorials.

[Acknown]

14 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

That is just one entry

Sorry, no. I went to the life story, found a hazy copy of the entry, picked another name on the list, dialled that up and thus was able to read a clear copy. I, like Clodagh, couldn't find the card.

Acknown

[Clodagh2]

Just now, Acknown said:

Here's the entry: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/5523810/698/29024/. There is also an extensive life story on Ancestry: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/167323823/person/412296437364/facts?_phsrc=cWB133&_phstart=successSource.

Acknown

That's my tree.

Edward has no known grave and as stated above is remembered at Tyne Cot.  I'm trying to find out whether he was still in Gustrow when he died, that's why I asked the question about an outbreak of Spanish Flu in Gustrow.  If he did die in Gustrow he would have been buried in Gustrow camp cemetery and then transferred to Ohlsdorf Cemetery in Hamburg in 1920.  I did contact CWGC a while ago but they have not come back to me.

[Allan1892]

Taken POW at Ronsoy (Ronssoy  is a commune in the Somme department in Hauts-de-France in northern France) on the 21 March 1918. (image courtesy of Find My Past)

[Allan1892]

I don't know if you have seen an image of Gustrow POW camp (courtesy of Australian War Memorial)

[Clodagh2]

Hi Allan,

Thank you for posting, I have seen them.  What I am really trying to figure out is whether Edward was still in Gustrow when he died mid/end of August 1918.  From the POW records I know he was there on 10/07/1918.  If I can prove that he was in Gustrow in August 1918 he has to have been buried in Gustrow Camp because at the time in Germany the law did not permit foreign prisoners to be buried in German cemeteries.  British Commonwealth prisoners who died in Gustrow were transferred to Ohlsdorf Cemetery in Hamburg in 1920.  I guess I'll have to wait for CWGC to come back to me.

[Allan1892]

Ancestry have the parish registers for Mecklenburg and when I search for deaths for Gustrow for 1918, there are 346 entries. I can not access any further as I do not have a world wide subscription. I might be wrong but if there was an outbreak of Spanish Flu in Gustrow in 1918, wouldn't the number of deaths be higher than 346?

[Clodagh2]

That's a very interesting point Allan!  I'm going to have a look at the registers now.  Immediate thoughts are would camp deaths be included in parish records considering POW's were not allowed to be buried in German cemeteries (apart from camp cemeteries)?  My thought at the moment is they would have been kept separate and apart.  Could Spanish Flu have been contained within the camp?  

[AOK4]

The deaths of POWs were as fars as I know not recorded in the communal registers. They were reported via the military authorities to the Red Cross.

I am still inclined to believe that the man died while working as a POW on the Western Front as he would have had some kind of grave or special memorial in Germany otherwise or he would have been mentioned on the Cologne Memorial.

Jan

[Allan1892]

13 minutes ago, Clodagh2 said:

Could Spanish Flu have been contained within the camp?  

Very doubtful -- 2020 is a case in point where transmission of Covid still occurred when we were in the first lockdown.

[JWK]

This (German language) website (with a lot of photos of the camp) says:

At the end of the war (turn of the year 1918/19) there was an outbreak of the "Spanish flu" in Güstrow and also in the POW camp. Although the "Armistice Commission" sent medicines from Berlin to the Güstrow camp, an epidemic nevertheless occurred.

https://www.wilhelm-mastaler.de/MM-H3a.htm]

The site of the camp is now an airfield, used by the gliders of https://aeroclub-guestrow.de/galerie/ 

[Acknown]

It is highly likely that the 1918 Grippe pandemic would have affected both the camp and the local community to some extent. The CWGC website states that Hamburg Cemetery contains individuals from: 'GUSTROW PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, Mecklenburg-Schwerin. 59 burials of 1914-1918. Gustrow was one of the main camps in which prisoners in Germany were held.' If the latter fact is considered, 59 deaths does not seem a large number.

I suppose one could find other Gustrow deaths and see what happened to them.

Acknown

Addition: After further reading, perhaps 59 is a realistic figure.

Edited 6 May , 2022 by Acknown

[Clodagh2]

Just now, JWK said:

This (German language) website (with a lot of photos of the camp) says:

At the end of the war (turn of the year 1918/19) there was an outbreak of the "Spanish flu" in Güstrow and also in the POW camp. Although the "Armistice Commission" sent medicines from Berlin to the Güstrow camp, an epidemic nevertheless occurred.

https://www.wilhelm-mastaler.de/MM-H3a.htm]

The site of the camp is now an airfield, used by the gliders of https://aeroclub-guestrow.de/galerie/ 

Thank you for posting!  Very interesting I had not seen https://www.wilhelm-mastaler.de/MM-H3a.htm] before.

[mancpal]

My maternal grandfather was captured at Bullecourt in May 1917. A letter from the chaplain saying he was missing believed killed. He too was registered at Gustrow though it was 6 months before he could contact home.

I also suspect that your man was probably killed on the Western Front after capture whilst working behind German lines, the subsequent loss of his grave (if there ever was one) would explain his inclusion on the Tyne Cot memorial.

Simon

[JWK]

His ICRC card:

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2054122/3/2/

I suddenly had a brainwave that maybe the ICRC made an error and had his name down as "Edward Faulkner" (the surname just above his entry)

And there is his card! Incorrectly archived under Faulkner, Irish.

 

*edit* : I let the ICRC know, and the card is now where it belongs: under FAY

 

 

Edited 11 May , 2022 by JWK

[AOK4]

35 minutes ago, JWK said:

His ICRC card:

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2054122/3/2/

I suddenly had a brainwave that maybe the ICRC made an error and had his name down as "Edward Faulkner" (the surname just above his entry)

And there is his card! Incorrectly archived under Faulkner, Irish.

I had been looking at different options (including alternative spellings that sounded similar) but hadn't found it. Unfortunately the card only refers to the already known document...

The whereabouts from March to August remain a mystery then.

[Clodagh2]

56 minutes ago, mancpal said:

My maternal grandfather was captured at Bullecourt in May 1917. A letter from the chaplain saying he was missing believed killed. He too was registered at Gustrow though it was 6 months before he could contact home.

I also suspect that your man was probably killed on the Western Front after capture whilst working behind German lines, the subsequent loss of his grave (if there ever was one) would explain his inclusion on the Tyne Cot memorial.

Simon

From what I understand Edward was captured during the Spring Offensive 21.03.1918 in Ronssoy.  He was recorded in Gustrow POW as shown above on 10.07.1918.  Why would Edward be recorded in Gustrow if he wasn't there?   It doesn't make sense! I will attach another record that says he died in Germany between 18-31st Aug 1918.  I don't know if admins will allow. 

[Clodagh2]

13 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

I had been looking at different options (including alternative spellings that sounded similar) but hadn't found it. Unfortunately the card only refers to the already known document...

The whereabouts from March to August remain a mystery then.

That is a great post regardless - if you can't find someone widen parameters.

[AOK4]

18 minutes ago, Clodagh2 said:

From what I understand Edward was captured during the Spring Offensive 21.03.1918 in Ronssoy.  He was recorded in Gustrow POW as shown above on 10.07.1918.  Why would Edward be recorded in Gustrow if he wasn't there?   It doesn't make sense! I will attach another record that says he died in Germany between 18-31st Aug 1918.  I don't know if admins will allow. 

 

All POWs were attached to a POW camp in Germany, even if they remained on the Western Front working in so called Kriegsgefangenen-Arbeiter-Bataillone or Engländer-Kommandos. They were attached to POW camps for administrative reasons and to make it more difficult for relatives and officials to find out where they really were.

Something similar existed for German POWs in British POW Companies. Their mail was always via G.P.O. London.

Jan

[Clodagh2]

Just now, AOK4 said:

All POWs were attached to a POW camp in Germany, even if they remained on the Western Front working in so called Kriegsgefangenen-Arbeiter-Bataillone or Engländer-Kommandos. They were attached to POW camps for administrative reasons and to make it more difficult for relatives and officials to find out where they really were.

Something similar existed for German POWs in British POW Companies. Their mail was always via G.P.O. London.

Jan

Thank you Jan for explaining.  That's really informative.

[mancpal]

In effect a postal address, the grandfather I mentioned was registered at Limburg, Dulmen and Gustrow. He brought home some postcards from Gustrow  but not the other two, the bulk of his postcards relate to his time at a camp north of Kiel called Gettorf which was one of many satellite camps administered by Gustrow.

I’m by far no expert though can’t reconcile how a soldier who is commemorated at Tyne Cot could have reached Gustrow.

Surely if he died at Gustrow then his remains would have been amongst those reinterred in Hamburg post war, or, after capture he never made it to a camp other than administratively.

Simon