Pte 103220 Frederick William Skelsey. Machine Gun Corps?

[Brian J Owen]

Thank you for pointing out what I should have seen, I have never seen that before, and the bonus is it telling me he belonged to 53rd M.G.C. and I had never realised the Red Cross papers were so accessible, thank you, I just have to remember all you are teaching me, 

Regards, 

Brian 

 

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, Brian J Owen said:

Thank you for pointing out what I should have seen, I have never seen that before, and the bonus is it telling me he belonged to 53rd M.G.C. and I had never realised the Red Cross papers were so accessible

No problem - Mis-observations happen occasionally, especially if you are using a small device.  Glad it has actually offered you as an outcome some more overall!

ICRC records are accessible and for free but their site is not necessarily easy to search! [can be a real nighmare!!].  I think paid-for Ancestry and/or Find My Past have a more easily searchable option of the records [Though I don't have such acccess and have thus never used it]

M

[Brian J Owen]

Thank you for the reply, and information, 

Regards, 

Brian 

[Brian J Owen]

I have looked at the forty numbers around Frederick Skelsey (  103200-103240 ) to try and find a link, I can see a lot of Royal Warwick's in the mix but not what I am looking for,

Regards,

Brian

 

                                                                                                 Machine  Gun Corps  Numbers 103200-103240

Numbers Rank Name date of birth       Residence Wounds/K.I.A. Medal Entitlement                                  Regiments & Units Enlisted / Discharge

103200PteClews. Arthur1898+D27D2D3:DD3:F34CoventryGun shot wound left leg War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corps /Royal Warwick's (no number)20/11/15-18/04/19

103201PteLangley. James W          War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corps

103202PteSommons. John T1891         Coventry               Prisoner of War 1918    War Medal & Victory Medal                   53rd Coy Machine Gun Corps

103203L/Cpl Greenwood Arthur        no info         Harbury     War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corp /Royal Warwick's (no number)

103204PteGardner.Louis       no info    War Medal & Victory Medal                M.G.C.

103205PteClarke. Josiah W       no info    War Medal &  Victory Medal                M.G.C.

103206PteMoore.Thomas H       no info    War Medai & Victory Medal                M.G.C.

103207PteBains.Alfred       no info Melton Mowbray    War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corps /Royal Warwick's (no number )

103208PteStevans. Walter1888        Coventry    War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corps / Royal Warwick's (no number)

103209PteWallis. Albert Edward     Coventry   153 coy   K.I.A. 17-9-17 Belgium    War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corps / Royal Warwick's (no number)?

103210PteWallis. Cecil      no info    War Medal & Victory Medal                M.G.C.

103211PteKing.Sidney George      no info    War Medal & Victory Medal                M.G.C.

103212CplPrestidge. Albert Edward      no info    War Medal & Victory Medal                M.G.C.

103213PteWilson.Frederick      no info    War Medal & Victory Medal                M.G.C.     

103214PtePortsmouth. John George      no info    War Medal & Victory Medal                M.G.C.     

103215PteHildrith. Edward Roland      no info    Gt Missenden    War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corps / Royal Warwick's 24267

103216PteStafford.William Thomas      no info    War Medal & Victory Medal                M.G.C.

103217PteBenn.Frederick      no info       Coventry    War Medal & Victory Medal          M.C.G. / Royal Warwick's 23999 3rd Batt

103218PteWilcox. Ivor     no info    War Medal & Victory Medal                 M.G.C.

103219PteJudd.Stanley Edward1895      Cubbington  Hepititus    War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corp Royal/ Warwick's 24556

103220PteSkelsey.Frederick William1897 Leamington Spa   War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corp /Royal Warwick's (no number)

103221PteBeasley. Sidney1898BirminghamGun shot wound left leg   War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corp / Royal Warwick's 24005

103222PteLamb. Frank W.E.     no info   War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103223PteGill. Sidney G.C.P.1887WeymouthGun Shot chest    War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103224CplDungay.Edward John no info Sherbourne    War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103225PteHarris.Albert no info Bristol     War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corp / Dorset Reg / Army Service Corp

103226PteShearn.Bertram. B     no info     War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103227PteDidlick. Ernest no info Bristol      War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103228PteIves.Charles    no Info      War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103229PteBere.Frank    no info      War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103230PteSelman. Ernest    no info      War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103231

103232PteBrown. Francis. B    no info War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103233PteDemmery. Bert  no infoWormley95th coy K.I.A. 1-5-1918War Medal & Victory Medal                  M.G.C.

103234PteEdwards.Enoch Wilfred no info Birmingham 56th coy D of W 20/9/1917War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corp / 10th Lincolnshire Reg

103235PteWalter.Harry no info War Medal & Victory Medal  M.G.C.

103236PteHeath. Lenard H no info War Medal & Victory Medal M.G.C.

103237Pte  Barton.George1886Reddich61st Batt  K.I.A. 17-06-18 War Medal & Victory Medal M.G.C

103238PteTingay. Frederick no info Walsall War Medal & Victory Medal Machine Gun Corp / Royal Warwick's 24285 plus

103239PteDrane. Percey F no info War Medal & Victory Medal M.G.C.

103240PteClarke. Tom no info Atherstone, War Medal & Victory Medal M.G.C.

[AndrewSid]

Brian,

I presume you mean you haven’t found his MGC unit or units?

Did you have any look family tree wise with regard to the article I posted on the last page around a brother being killed? Was that the family or a red herring?

 I think that given  his town and him sitting  firmly in the group that joined the MGC we can say with reasonably confidence he was an ex Warwickshire regiment man who was posted to fill the ranks of the MGC for uk training before being sent to France.  At least that’s what I am seeing.

His MGC unit is unlikely to be found without a further nugget of information. Without family documents this is difficult. Have you considered absent voter lists for where you are?

As an aside I only know my great uncles MGC unit because he won an award with them. I don’t know when he went to France exactly and his UK unit being the Denbighshire Yeomanry is only a hypothesis that is much weaker than your case. 

Andy

[Brian J Owen]

Hi Andy, strange day, I was speaking with one of his grand daughters today, she is in England visiting relatives. Her knowledge of her grandfather was he was gassed at third ypres, and she knew he had been wounded a second time, she said there's a photo of him in uniform somewhere, sounds positive. She also mentioned she didn't think he was in the Warwicks, she maybe confused because of the movement of troops. 

At the moment I am looking at the war office casualty list to see if I can find any other casualties starting with the 103... number, long shot but you never know. 

With reference to the family tree I don't think that they were brothers, maybe cousins,  thanks for the reply, 

Regards, 

Brian 

 

 

 

[kenf48]

19 hours ago, Brian J Owen said:

I was speaking with one of his grand daughters today, she is in England visiting relatives. Her knowledge of her grandfather was he was gassed at third ypres, and she knew he had been wounded a second time, she said there's a photo of him in uniform somewhere, sounds positive. She also mentioned she didn't think he was in the Warwicks, she maybe confused because of the movement of troops. 

He was most certainly in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, he did not serve overseas with them.  As previously posted men were not drafted directily in to the MGC in 1917.

The next batch apparently came from the 3rd Battalion Dorset shire Regiment.

On 09/05/2022 at 17:02, Brian J Owen said:

Have I missed something?

Only that it says 'man alive' in red ink.

If your man was in 53 Company, later 18 Battalion and we don't know that with any degree of certainty and if he did go to France in July 1917 he would have been engaged at Third Ypres with that Company.   Simmons was taken at the Battle of St Quentin for which there is a narrative account in the 18th Battalion war diary.  As a matter of interest they were also in action,another narrative account, 25th October to 7th November 1918.  The dates may accord with the previously posted casualty list (?).

It is a big if, in thw absence of corroboration (e.g 103221 1st Battalion; 103224 34th Bn; 103225 98 Comany; 103228 (formerly Dorsets) 224 Company) but is a possibility.

Most of these men mentioned above, if not all, were Derby attestations called up in February 1917 at the height of the 1917 "manpower crisis" and posted to the  Reserve Battalion of the County Regiment.  The 3rd Warwicks were on the Isle of Wight, they were all then posted into the MGC and formally transferred and renumbered on or around 5th May 1917.  They were posted to the BEF on various dates, the earliest of which I have seen was the 31st July which, if Skelsey was posted around that date, and was posted to 53 Company, does put him well in the frame for 3rd Ypres.  The 53 Company war diary does not unfortunately note any reinforcement drafts.  Although combined with the other Brigade Companies to form the 18th Battalion on February 16 1918, that Battalion's war diary was still referring to them by the original title in an Operation Order dated 1st March. They then start naming them as Companies "A", 'B", "C".  The general practice following this reorganisation, though it is not specified in this diary, is they were named in previous number order, i.e. 53 Company became A Company;54 'B' and so on.

As previously suggested the Absent Voters List is your best bet. 

I've been unable to find the 1st wounding, he may have remained at duty.

 

[Brian J Owen]

Hi Ken, thank you for your reply, exciting reading your if theory, and I think with a little more info we can nail this (did you like the we)

In war office casualty list, along with 103220, I found 103118,  Pte J.E. Crowe, on his pension card it said he received his pension for the effects of gassing, will keep looking for 103... numbers,

thanks again,

Regards,

Brian

[Brian J Owen]

Good evening, looking at the War Office weekly casualty lists on the 26th February 1918 I have found one 103259 Pte Edwin Welton, Prisoner of War, died 11th May 1918. He is buried  in Conde-Sur-L'Escaut Communal Cemetery, he belonged to 196th coy  M.G.C.. 

How were they deployed?   Did they serve alongside battalions of other infantryman rather than a stand alone unit?

Regards 

Brian 

[AndrewSid]

The machine gun companies were a brigade asset that would be split and used across the four and latterly three infantry battalions as the brigade saw fit.  

The companies were originally formed from the men of and often numbered as that brigade ie 86 Brigade formed 86 MGC company.  In 1917 (exact dates I haven’t got to hand) the number of MGC companies was increased from three to four in each Division.  That MGC company was usually one raised in Grantham then deployed to France vice organically constructed. 

When the MGC battalions were formed they were very much formally a Divisional assets. From the diaries I’ve read the companies would move around across the Division in support of the Brigades as required.  Reading the war diaries usually gives you a flavour of how they were disposed.  In also means that if you follow a specific MGC company in a specific action or time then reading that specific brigade or even infantry battalion diary can be of use.

Is that what you meant of did you mean their tactical deployment?

 

 

[Brian J Owen]

Good evening Andrew, thanks for your response I am trying to understand how it all fit's together. 

I am trying to tie 103... series of numbers together to plot there route, but when they left the  depot would they have formed a new unit? Or would they have split up between other established units? and if so how do I locate where 196th coy information is held? Hopefully this makes sense, 

Regards, 

Brian 

 

 

[AndrewSid]

Brian,

I understand you objective.  I’d recommend the absent voter line of research as being important.

You asked about 196 MGC Coy.  Their war diary is here:  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354867

Have you tried running all your near numbers men through the ICRC website? It’s one of the few areas that usually list sub units so might be worth some work to add to what you have.

With regard to Grantham. I’d perhaps add the below for some context.  This is the deployment of 227 MGC Coy from their diary.  Note they deployed with three other newly formed MGC Coys. The tempo of both forming and sending new units and also feeding men direct to units as draft replacements was a busy one. 

[kenf48]

14 hours ago, Brian J Owen said:

I am trying to tie 103... series of numbers together to plot there route, but when they left the  depot would they have formed a new unit? Or would they have split up between other established units? and if so how do I locate where 196th coy information is held?

As previously posted, in the absence of a service record or other corroboration (e.g. as previously mentioned  ICRC; gallantry medals; MH106 Hospital admissions ;CWGC; AVL) ,all near number sampling for the MGC will tell you, once you are beyond the initial formation of the Corps, is the approximate date the soldier was transferred and renumbered to the MGC.  It will not even tell you if he was attached to Corps prior to transfer and it will not tell you with any degree of certainty where a soldier was posted either to a unit formed in the UK (as 196 Company) or where he was posted from the MG Depot at Camiers in France.

196 Company MGC was raised at Belton Park Grantham and left there for overseas service at 8.30pm on the 13 December 1916.  They were posted to 55th Division as the fourth MG Company in the Division (as mentioned in @AndrewSid post above) and were a Divisional asset.  Absorbed into 55th Battalion in the February 1918 reorganisation.

We have already established the 103*** series dates from around May 1917 so Pte Welton could not have gone overseas with the main body of 196 Company but was in a reinforcement draft and posted to that Company.  We don't know when or how many were in the draft.  We know he was captured on the 30th November at Villers.  Being very conservative after six week training the earliest the draft could have joined 196 Company was June.  The war diary records replacement drafts arriving in small numbers from the Divisional Reinforcement Camp.  It includes a narrative of the action at Ypres from 31st July to 4 August which includes a casualty list there are no casualties in the 103*** series listed, nevertheless a very interesting read.  Unfortunately the diary is less meticulous from October 1917 and merely reports 41 NCOs and Other Ranks missing on the 30th November following the attack at Villers.

There comes a point when all sources have been exhausted where we have to say 'we don't know which Company a soldier was posted to".

[Brian J Owen]

Hi Andrew and Ken, thank you for your answers , and comments. I am going to the County Records Office on Wednesday to see if I can find the absent voters list, also check the local paper for 1917/18 local war news. I think if I draw a blank I will with your assistance gone as far as I can, thanks again,

Regards,

Brian

[Woodnbits]

Apologies if this has already been asked. What does his marriage certificate say for occupation? According to his family tree on Ancestry he married Beatrice Louisa Lane in the 4th quarter 1916 in Warwick.

Tim

[Brian J Owen]

At last, I have been able to look at the absent voters list for 1918,  and Frederick William Skelsey was in the 17th M.G.C. traced the War diary WO95/1995/2 ,although he will not be named it will give me an insight of his war, thank you all for your thoughts and support, thanks Tim for the marriage certificate thought I will pursue this,

Regards to all, 

Brian

 

[AndrewSid]

Brian,

An excellent find, well done.  I’m presuming it’s the 17th  Bn comprising 50,51, 52 and 236 Coys that your referring to?

236 Coy went to France with its 180 officers and men on 13 July 1917 so represents a good candidate noting he could have been a draft into any of the other 3 or a later draft into 236 Coy. 
 

hopefully you can understand why we were cautious with assumptions. 
 

Andy

Edited 27 July , 2022 by AndrewSid

[Brian J Owen]

Hi Andy, so pleased to  find that small but so  important snippet. I feel your correct with 236 Coy as they left in 1917 and the others were there  in 1916. 

I still feel there maybe more for me to do but I have a start.

Wise words I shall never forget "assume nothing " how very true, 

Thanks again, 

Brian 

[AndrewSid]

1 hour ago, Brian J Owen said:

still feel there maybe more for me to do but I have a start.

Indeed.  It’s still unlikely we will prove his Company but there is more stuff you can do now.

From the casualty lists published here https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815 you can now look at the casualties in a bit more detail.  An easy start point is those killed in action.  See below. By then running through the CWGC web site under name and number you can establish their unit and date of death.  I’ve only done the first 4, two (Acock and Cheney) are  17 Bn men, both Killed in Action on the 04th of November 1918 , there are likely more which leads you to when Skelsey was likely wounded.  You can then check the war diary to see what company was in action and perhaps which one (s) took casualties that day.
 

all good detective work. 
 

Edited 27 July , 2022 by AndrewSid

[Brian J Owen]

Hi Andrew, now I have challenge, but one I quite look forward to, its finding the time now, if the the 17th Battalion were formed in 1918, would the 236th coy still part of the 17th Division before they amalgamated with the 17th Battalion?

Thanks again for your information, 

Regards, 

Brian 

[kenf48]

49 minutes ago, Brian J Owen said:

if the the 17th Battalion were formed in 1918, would the 236th coy still part of the 17th Division before they amalgamated with the 17th Battalion?

The "fourth" MG Company was a Divisional asset (the others were 'brigaded') as you will have seen, and following the protocol it became "D" Company in the 17th Battalion MGC

The war diary may be downloaded from TNA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352919

The main reason for the reorganisation of the MGC was the adoption of 'barrage tactics' which had been mooted for some time prior to 1918.

Well done for finding the AVL always a sense of elation when names re found in the archives, will refrain from saying 'told you so'

 

[AndrewSid]

Brian,

As Ken says they became D Coy of the 17th Battalion from Feb 18.  The war diary shifts from being four separate ones  reporting on 180 men each to a single one reporting on the activities of almost 800.  Once you have checked the names on the MGC killed list above the war diary will tell you what was happening on the 04th of November.  Looks like Frederick was wounded with just a week to go. 
 

Andy

[Brian J Owen]

Good evening gentlemen, Ken you were so right and thank you, you unlocked the puzzle I am forever in your debt. Andrew, I am fascinated with reading parts of the diary I just need to sit down with the list of names pen and paper and look at each one. I have googled 236th coy M.G.C. and found a few casualties for October 1917 , so much work to be done, thanks again, 

Regards, 

Brian 

 

[AndrewSid]

Brian,

CWGC site is a fickle beast but good for unit searches.  Put machine gun corps and separately machine gun corps (infantry) into the regiment box  then in the smaller box below entitled unit use  236th coy or 17th Bn as required.  Name and service number searches for individuals. 

Edited 28 July , 2022 by AndrewSid

[Brian J Owen]

Thanks Andrew,  that's brilliant,

Regards, 

Brian