AIF Medal receipt

[tankengine888]

Hello! I found multiple men on the National [Australian] Archives, who do not have a medal receipt attached to their record. Among these men is one of my relatives, who served 1914-1919 at Gallipoli and Palestine, but I have a photo of him wearing ribbons. Does this mean
A. his medals were not awarded but the ribbons were
B. his medals were awarded but no medal receipt
Cheers in advance.

[jay dubaya]

I’d say the receipt was never received and so never entered into the individual service files.

[rksimpson]

HI

I think I read somewhere that the files were weeded a while ago and any documents not relating to their service were removed and destroyed. So a lot do not have those receipts, or just some of them. His medal entitlement and whether they were sent out and when should be recorded on the last page of his records, including stamps of the medals. 

 

regards

 

Robert

 

[tankengine888]

7 hours ago, rksimpson said:

HI

I think I read somewhere that the files were weeded a while ago and any documents not relating to their service were removed and destroyed. So a lot do not have those receipts, or just some of them. His medal entitlement and whether they were sent out and when should be recorded on the last page of his records, including stamps of the medals. 

 

regards

 

Robert

 

Last page of the record eh?
1st cousin 4 removed, Arthur Charles Gustav Wegener, killed 18th September 1917, his medals were never awarded until 2015
(last page of his record)

https://www.murrayvalleystandard.com.au/story/3032263/mannum-diggers-medals-return-home-98-years-later/
Probably different case with Olson because he wasn't killed in the war.

Edited 22 April , 2022 by tankengine888

[rksimpson]

Hi

Above the medal stamps are 2 entries - British War Medal was issued to the Commandant of the 4th Military District on 29/7/21 and the 14-15 Star to him on 11/2/21. He would have got someone to try to pass them onto NOK. The bottom note says the BWM was taken on charge from RS by Adelaide?? (No idea what that means!) 4th MD = South Australia. Notice the last page has the memorial plaque scroll and where Australians rest returned as next of kin, as recorded in his service record, was untraceable.

So the medals were issued, but no one could be found at the address given in his service records to give them to.

regards

Robert

 

[tankengine888]

2 hours ago, rksimpson said:

Hi

Above the medal stamps are 2 entries - British War Medal was issued to the Commandant of the 4th Military District on 29/7/21 and the 14-15 Star to him on 11/2/21. He would have got someone to try to pass them onto NOK. The bottom note says the BWM was taken on charge from RS by Adelaide?? (No idea what that means!) 4th MD = South Australia. Notice the last page has the memorial plaque scroll and where Australians rest returned as next of kin, as recorded in his service record, was untraceable.

So the medals were issued, but no one could be found at the address given in his service records to give them to.

regards

Robert

 

And I suppose this would be a different case with Olson due to the fact that he would've been in the military [disch. 22 october 1919] when his medals were issued? medals probably given in 1920 now that I think of it. here's a photo post july 1919, wearing the 3 service medals and one other unknown

[rksimpson]

Hi

What is his full name/service number?

I would like to look at his file.

 

regards

Robert

[tankengine888]

18 minutes ago, rksimpson said:

Hi

What is his full name/service number?

I would like to look at his file.

 

regards

Robert

562 James Olson, enlisted 9th December, 1914.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=7997367

[rksimpson]

Hi

 

Unfortunately it looks like his record was weeded, the only notice to his medals being issued is on the last page but no dates are recorded.

They were issued at different times in late teens early twenties as far as I know but it does not seem you will get a definitive answer.

regards

Robert

[tankengine888]

8 minutes ago, rksimpson said:

Hi

 

Unfortunately it looks like his record was weeded, the only notice to his medals being issued is on the last page but no dates are recorded.

They were issued at different times in late teens early twenties as far as I know but it does not seem you will get a definitive answer.

regards

Robert

So if I try to apply for them, I'd probably get "already issued" response? he's wearing his ribbons in post july 1919, so i'd assume they'd come in the same box.. but they look "mounted" already.

[rksimpson]

Yep, no reason to think they were not sent to him, nothing on the last page to indicate they were returned.

So they are out there somewhere.

 

regards

Robert

[tankengine888]

5 minutes ago, rksimpson said:

Yep, no reason to think they were not sent to him, nothing on the last page to indicate they were returned.

So they are out there somewhere.

 

regards

Robert

This is why I wish I was born in the 20th century, because then answers like that could be answered. His wife died in 1995,  he himself died in 1968. Last man from his unit [from my research] was a man named Kelly in 1996. I don't really keep contact with distant family, ie his other childrens descendants.. only one is alive to this day surprisingly.. I was told that he was left to die in combat, yet the worst wound he ever got was getting "kicked by a horse" believe it or not. He never spoke of the war, which I assume is normal, he served effectively September 1915-November 1918 which is enough to see a thing or two. Surprising to see he was present but didn't charge at Beersheba, but aye.
Anyhow, Cheers.

[Fromelles]

I doubt the records have been weeded, but likely a case of him failing to bother returning the receipt slip, which was very common.

Another possibility is it has been misfiled, the number of files with records belonging to men with similar names, or just totally wrong, it incredible. 

I inform the NAA of such misfiling of records when discovered, usually once I have collected a decent number of examples that are in need of refiling

Dan

[Guest]

Mate,

Strange but true many soldiers never applied for their issue of medals.

MY GF wore only his ribbons, and it was me that applied for them for his great grand son long after he passed.

S.B

[tankengine888]

I should note that I have been told the fate of my great great grandfather's medals.. which is ofcourse, on the other side of the family, trapped in family feud unfortunately.

47 minutes ago, stevebecker said:

many soldiers never applied for their issue of medals.

MY GF wore only his ribbons, and it was me that applied for them for his great grand son long after he passed.

S.B

I suppose it was just traumatic memories coming back. I should also note my grandad (who was discharged from the Australian army in 1993) applied for the Australian Defence Medal for me, so something similar!

 

2 hours ago, Fromelles said:

I inform the NAA of such misfiling of records when discovered, usually once I have collected a decent number of examples that are in need of refiling

Funny story actually, there was a thread awhile back, you posted on there actually! It was concerning Lieutenant Benson (Supposedly) DCM, killed Fromelles. It was concerning his DCM and that, and whilst looking through Benson's record, I found my great great grandfather's oath papers instead of Bensons! Really funny coincidence in my opinion

[Fromelles]

On 21/05/2022 at 23:39, stevebecker said:

Mate,

Strange but true many soldiers never applied for their issue of medals.

MY GF wore only his ribbons, and it was me that applied for them for his great grand son long after he passed.

S.B

Over the years I’ve managed to get issued a great uncle’s gallipoli medallion, my grandfather’s WWII service medals, and two ‘extra’ medals to my grandmother who didn’t realize she was entitled to, for her WWII service as a nurse.

All by enquiring to Honours and Awards (Australia)

Dan

[tankengine888]

35 minutes ago, Fromelles said:

Over the years I’ve managed to get issued a great uncle’s gallipoli medallion, my grandfather’s WWII service medals, and two ‘extra’ medals to my grandmother who didn’t realize she was entitled to, for her WWII service as a nurse.

All by enquiring to Honours and Awards (Australia)

Dan

I should probably enquire for the medallion actually, Olson died February 1968, and probably never got it. I should note that it probably wasn’t issued.. no records about it on NAA. How long did the Medallion take to arrive (from first letter to arrival) and isn’t it only to the closest living NOK?

my regards.

edit: J A Marcus 220, died illness 1915.. His scroll has a receipt but no medal receipt.. I also can’t read cursive so if someone can help.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=8039014&S=15&N=39&R=0#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=8039014&T=P&S=38

Edited 26 May , 2022 by tankengine888

[Fromelles]

Back in the ‘80s I remember a newspaper article stating there were something like 30,000 medals still waiting to be collected.

It may have taken about three months for them to issue them. 

From memory H&W weren’t so concerned about closest living relatives, but there had to obviously be a relationship, so maybe an elder relative would be best to apply

Edited 16 June , 2022 by Fromelles

[TullochArd]

On 22/04/2022 at 09:13, tankengine888 said:

.............with Olson ............ here's a photo post july 1919, wearing the 3 service medals and one other unknown

At that time I'd offer, based on order of precedence, there's only one contender for a campaign medal after the trio and that's GSM 18.

[tankengine888]

4 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

At that time I'd offer, based on order of precedence, there's only one contender for a campaign medal after the trio and that's GSM 18.

The unknown medal looks like the War Medal 39-45.. similar in design as it were.

The GSM 1918 doesn't look like the right one, too many 'stripes' on the ribbon for it to match.

 

edit: second thoughts, you might be right. was there an Olson in the British Army who was allowed to wear the GSM?

Edited 26 May , 2022 by tankengine888
I was blind, mistook the ribbon

[tankengine888]

Question ‘ere.

So I ask, did the Gallipoli Medallion get stamped on the medal sheet? Is there a way to see if it was issued?

also! I want to ask, how many medals never reached their ‘bearers’? And one more, did the Ribbon come with the medal? I assume it did (since it seems to be common sense, but I am curious regardless).

‘ta-ta for now’

[TullochArd]

On 27/05/2022 at 02:08, tankengine888 said:

So I ask, did the Gallipoli Medallion get stamped on the medal sheet? Is there a way to see if it was issued?

Unlikely.... although it's likely recorded somewhere and probably on Registers of medals and badges issued for the First and Second World Wars which are held in the Melbourne office of the National Archives of Australia (series MT1384/2) .....I'm informed "To gain access to these registers, contact the archives.".... which is stating the obvious a bit.

The criteria is "The Anzac Commemorative Medallion and Badge. In March 1967 the (your) Prime Minister (then) the Rt. Hon. Harold Holt, announced that a commemorative medallion and badge was to be issued to surviving members of the Australian Defence Force who served on the Gallipoli Peninsula, or in direct support of the operations from close off shore, at any time during the period from the first Anzac Day in April 1915 to the date of final evacuation in January 1916."

....... n.b. issued to "surviving members of the Australian Defence Force" so kindly note that will not be the NOK of now deceased.

Now off on a tangent regarding the criteria...... they use "Australian Defence Force" ...... serving in Gallipoli?  ...... surely they mean "Australian Imperial Force"? 

Safely back on track ...... you assume correct regarding the ribbon.  Every single medal was issued with a generous length of medal ribbon.

Edited 28 May , 2022 by TullochArd

[tankengine888]

9 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Unlikely.... although it's likely recorded somewhere and probably on Registers of medals and badges issued for the First and Second World Wars which are held in the Melbourne office of the National Archives of Australia (series MT1384/2) .....I'm informed "To gain access to these registers, contact the archives.".... which is stating the obvious a bit.

The criteria is "The Anzac Commemorative Medallion and Badge. In March 1967 the (your) Prime Minister (then) the Rt. Hon. Harold Holt, announced that a commemorative medallion and badge was to be issued to surviving members of the Australian Defence Force who served on the Gallipoli Peninsula, or in direct support of the operations from close off shore, at any time during the period from the first Anzac Day in April 1915 to the date of final evacuation in January 1916."

....... n.b. issued to "surviving members of the Australian Defence Force" so kindly note that will not be the NOK of now deceased.

Now off on a tangent regarding the criteria...... they use "Australian Defence Force" ...... serving in Gallipoli?  ...... surely they mean "Australian Imperial Force"? 

Safely back on track ...... you assume correct regarding the ribbon.  Every single medal was issued with a generous length of medal ribbon.

I see.. Give me 10 years to look through those records of MT1384/2... Thanks regardless.. even if it only includes every badge but the Medallion.. time to email.
Also, that criteria of the ANZAC Commemorative Medallion and Badge is incorrect, I've seen people with the Medallion of people killed at Gallipoli.
Australian Defence Force probably is simply quickly than AIF, and that's also including the Navy*
Anyhow, this helps alot!
Thanks!

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

Also, that criteria of the ANZAC Commemorative Medallion and Badge is incorrect, ..........

..... what's the correct criteria then? 

[tankengine888]

45 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

..... what's the correct criteria then? 

Probably if they 'served on gallipoli' Examples
https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/6178f0b1a912eb19596d37a7

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/stolen-gallipoli-medal-found-one-year-later-on-kaikohe-roadside/2LVAVXZ2TJCZ2IJYHSOA2K2HWY/