Medal Record Index cards

[derrickduncan]

3 hours ago, kenf48 said:

OK trying a different tack I have been through the medal index cards and now even wondering if George Young made it to Gallipoli!

We know these men from the Royal Scots Fusiliers 4th Bn formed the nucleus of 155 Company MGC 

The number range is  56247 to 56312  if we believe the family story there has been an administrative error.  I have therefore looked at the medal index cards for all these men.No service records appear to have survived.

The 4th Battalion, or more precisely the 1/4th Rolls,invariably show date of entry into theatre 2b for their arrival in the Dardanelles as 6.6.1915. 

We can assume the 155th Coy MGC was formed from men of the 1/4th and 1/5th Bus Royal Scots Fusiliers, the great majority of these men accord with the 1/4th entry date on their medal index cards, if I've added it up right after a couple of g and ts and covid 48/65 entered theatre 2b 0n the same date as given in the Rolls for the main body, i.e. 6.6.1915

So examining the outliers we have George Young entering Egypt 20.5.1915 and 8354/56258 Northcote entering theatre 3 on the 10.6.1915

We have a reinforcement draft entering the Dardanelles on the 5.9.1915  7577/56271 Gemmell and 9316/56288 Dickson on 10.11.1915

Allowing for a couple of errors by the medals office and a couple I couldn't find  the following who joined the bCompany have no qualification for the 14-15 Star

7543/56247 Woods

7524/56256 Paton

7950/56291 Gibson

8227/56287 Denim

8380/56295 Hill

6999/56310 Mc Cartney

9181/56309 Smith

The biggest error is 6381/56820 Dorrach/Drrock who has four cards one of which has no Star and one with the common date of entry, the other two relate to an emblem and finally referencing an mid

Unfortunately we are trying to prove a negative, i.e. that Hugh Paton did not gp to Gallipoli and dis not enter a theatre of war until after 31.12.1915.

That is what all the extant records point to but mistakes were made.  Nevertheless those who entered theatre with the 1/4 on the 6.6.1915 have been meticulously recorded, with the exception of Dorrach who has two cards one showing the 14- 15 Star and one not.

I have the full list but it has my abbreviations so not fit for publication in its present form.

The only reason I can think Hugh Paton did not go to Gallipoli is his age and we have not been told that.  We know he enlisted in the 4th RSF with George Young around April/May 19113, but once mobilised on the declaration of war we don't know what happened to them.  It's clear however they were both in Egypt when the 155 Coy MGC was formed. George did not leave for the UK until much later, but when he did they parted company.

There are a couple of further anomalies in the mics 

7923/56290 Fleming RE 413826 T0W  (5a) 19.5.1915

and

9602 (corrected) 56286 TOW (1) 9.9.15

and

8354 56258  Northcote  TOW ( 3 )10.6.15

My conclusion, on the balance of probability and without further genealogical information would be that Pte Paton did not serve in the Dardanelles.

HUgh was 21 on 31st March 1914,The following newspaper announcment indicates George was in Gallipoli.

[TEW]

Well, there is a Casualty List for a H. Paon 56256 MGC, 4/1/8 and from West Kilbride. The surname issue is as printed.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

47 minutes ago, TEW said:

Well, there is a Casualty List for a H. Paon 56256 MGC, 4/1/8 and from West Kilbride. The surname issue is as printed.

That's a good spot if the surname was printed as you have indicated. 

Is that 1918?

M

[derrickduncan]

6 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

That's a good spot if the surname was printed as you have indicated. 

Is that 1918?

M

That would be interesting it is certainly his MGC number and he was from West Kilbride.Can the injury detail be found from this?

 

[TEW]

My typo, yes it's 1918.

Earlier I said I tried all variations. That was for RSF, his four digit number and 1915.

The entry has no more information. There are 14 MGC men on the same list. 56331 Lowrie & 56303 McClymont may be of interest,

TEW

[TEW]

Now seeing a CL entry for:

G Young, 8th RSF 7323. 15/9/1915.

Can't find anything else for 7323 Young so the number must be another typo for 7523?

8th RSF. According to LLT arrived in Boulogne 20/9/15. Not sure what's going on with his CL date.

Only a transcription available.

Edit  it says 8th RSF Territorials which can't be correct?

TEW

Edited 21 April , 2022 by TEW

[derrickduncan]

On 19/04/2022 at 09:28, BillyH said:

There does not appear to be a separate medal index card for Hugh, and he doesn't appear on a medal roll for the star.

I would venture to say that they may have served together in Palestine - but not at Gallipoli.

BillyH.

Just a thought , but previous search by a researcher found the medal card I have posted, but stated that Hughs other records may have been destroyed in the blitz of 1941. Is there a possibility that the RHF medal card that you searched for was part of this loss or were they held separately.

[ss002d6252]

24 minutes ago, derrickduncan said:

Is there a possibility that the RHF medal card that you searched for was part of this loss or were they held separately.

The MIC would have a corresponding entry in the medal roll, so there should not be one without the other. None of the WW1 campaign medal cards were destroyed in WW1.

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

31 minutes ago, derrickduncan said:

Just a thought , but previous search by a researcher found the medal card I have posted, but stated that Hughs other records may have been destroyed in the blitz of 1941. Is there a possibility that the RHF medal card that you searched for was part of this loss or were they held separately.

Generally, one man had one card which listed all the regiments he served with in a theatre of war, occasionally, you'll see a separate MIC for the 14/15 Star to the rest, (there are other scenarios, but you didn't get a different card for each regiment served in).

The point is that the card is just the index for actual medal roll itself which lists entitlement, and even if you postulated that a card could be missing, the roll (compiled 30/4 1920) survives, and would have ante-dated the blitz by 20 years. That 14/15 roll shows Tappenden 56212, Young 56248, then Northcote 56258. No Paton 56256, sorry.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41804_625537_9977-00049?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=4010dafbfbe712e12eaa8b5fa30e17ee&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bKr54&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=5705035

 

Edited 23 April , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[derrickduncan]

3 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Generally, one man had one card which listed all the regiments he served with in a theatre of war, occasionally, you'll see a separate MIC for the 14/15 Star to the rest, (there are other scenarios, but you didn't get a different card for each regiment served in).

The point is that the card is just the index for actual medal roll itself which lists entitlement, and even if you postulated that a card could be missing, the roll (compiled 30/4 1920) survives, and would have ante-dated the blitz by 20 years. That 14/15 roll shows Tappenden 56212, Young 56248, then Northcote 56258. No Paton 56256, sorry.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41804_625537_9977-00049?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=4010dafbfbe712e12eaa8b5fa30e17ee&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bKr54&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=5705035

 

No that’s fine, amazed at what you guys on the forum have been able to tell me in a few days. I don’t know how these things work so just making sure.

[derrickduncan]

33 minutes ago, derrickduncan said:

No that’s fine, amazed at what you guys on the forum have been able to tell me in a few days. I don’t know how these things work so just making sure.

Another question, I know that my grandfather was wounded at least once, my mother said twice, as I have a newspaper report that states that from December 1917, is there a list like the one for the war medals that could be looked at to see if he had been wounded before or after where his service records are missing?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Weekly casualty lists are available on the National Library of Scotland site, starting July/August 1917. You could try searching the December 1917 - February 1918 issues for some confirmation:

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815

[kenf48]

On 20/04/2022 at 23:14, derrickduncan said:

There was another family story that Hughs grandfather who was his boss on the farm had not been pleased at the timing and  "persuaded" him to put off going to war with his friends till the harvest was all in.

That is quite plausible.  The terms of service for the TF on enlistment in 1913 was for home service only.  I recently posted on this thread Lord Kitchener's letter to the County Associations, stressing the importance of Home Defence.

As the war diary tells us initially, in 1914 roughly half of the men in the 4th Royal Scots Fusiliers agreed to serve overseas.  Those, who for whatever reason did not do so would form the nucleus of the second line or 2/4th  Battalion.  The War Office allowed the County Association to form the second line once 60% of the original first line had signed the Imperial Obligation to serve overseas.

Clearly both family stories can't be true, if he he was retained in the UK on home defence and agriculture he could not have been rescued at Gallipoli by George Young. The Division was not warned for overseas service until the 28th April 1915 when it was suggested it would join the BEF 'as soon as possible'.  I t was not until the 7th May when it was finally told it was to be despatched 'to Egypt as soon as practicable'.

Incidentally, whilst the machine gun section of the 1/4th landed unopposed on the 6th June 1916 at 7pm on 'V' Beach thus reflecting the date of entry into theatre of the majority of the soldiers who moved into the Brigade MG Company many elements of the Division did put in to Alexandria on various dates in May, as the GOC Commanding put it he had been 'led a dog's life' over the mobilisation of his Division and that was written before the Quintishall Railway Disaster.

Of course they moved on to the Dardanelles and I was being facetious when I suggested George may have remained in Egypt for which I apologise.  Those that put into Alexandria included the transports as well as HQ Staff of the Division and Brigades. The 155 Brigade diary is proving elusive but may shed some light on theses parties within that Brigade if found.

1 hour ago, derrickduncan said:

Another question, I know that my grandfather was wounded at least once, my mother said twice, as I have a newspaper report that states that from December 1917, is there a list like the one for the war medals that could be looked at to see if he had been wounded before or after where his service records are missing?

Only the casualty lists which have been searched by TEW above. These are held at the National Library of Scotland.  The Scotsman newspaper is good for casualty lists of Scottish soldiers (as is the Times of London but the former concentrates on Scottish regiments therefore easier to search) and can be searched on FMP or the British Newspaper Archive.

FMP has a representative sample of MH 106/ Hospital Admissions but he does not appear there.  The best bet is the local newspapers but you seem to have gleaned all you can from there.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Only the casualty lists which have been searched by TEW above. T

On 21/04/2022 at 00:00, TEW said:

Well, there is a Casualty List for a H. Paon 56256 MGC, 4/1/8 and from West Kilbride. The surname issue is as printed

I hadn't seen those posts. That looks like a typo doesn't it?

[derrickduncan]

27 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

That is quite plausible.  The terms of service for the TF on enlistment in 1913 was for home service only.  I recently posted on this thread Lord Kitchener's letter to the County Associations, stressing the importance of Home Defence.

As the war diary tells us initially, in 1914 roughly half of the men in the 4th Royal Scots Fusiliers agreed to serve overseas.  Those, who for whatever reason did not do so would form the nucleus of the second line or 2/4th  Battalion.  The War Office allowed the County Association to form the second line once 60% of the original first line had signed the Imperial Obligation to serve overseas.

Clearly both family stories can't be true, if he he was retained in the UK on home defence and agriculture he could not have been rescued at Gallipoli by George Young. The Division was not warned for overseas service until the 28th April 1915 when it was suggested it would join the BEF 'as soon as possible'.  I t was not until the 7th May when it was finally told it was to be despatched 'to Egypt as soon as practicable'.

Incidentally, whilst the machine gun section of the 1/4th landed unopposed on the 6th June 1916 at 7pm on 'V' Beach thus reflecting the date of entry into theatre of the majority of the soldiers who moved into the Brigade MG Company many elements of the Division did put in to Alexandria on various dates in May, as the GOC Commanding put it he had been 'led a dog's life' over the mobilisation of his Division and that was written before the Quintishall Railway Disaster.

Of course they moved on to the Dardanelles and I was being facetious when I suggested George may have remained in Egypt for which I apologise.  Those that put into Alexandria included the transports as well as HQ Staff of the Division and Brigades. The 155 Brigade diary is proving elusive but may shed some light on theses parties within that Brigade if found.

Only the casualty lists which have been searched by TEW above. These are held at the National Library of Scotland.  The Scotsman newspaper is good for casualty lists of Scottish soldiers (as is the Times of London but the former concentrates on Scottish regiments therefore easier to search) and can be searched on FMP or the British Newspaper Archive.

FMP has a representative sample of MH 106/ Hospital Admissions but he does not appear there.  The best bet is the local newspapers but you seem to have gleaned all you can from there.

Thanks for this, I know from West Kilbride 1914 Roll of Honour that Hugh did not go to war in 1914 and also read that the 1st Line battalion had its compliment by Sept/Oct 1914 so I presumed Hugh would have been in the 2nd line battalion. My mother never mentioned Gallipoli to me and I had thought he only served in Palestine until my brother told me the injury occurred on the Gallipoli peninsula. On initially finding his Medal Record Card a few years ago I didn't realise the significance of the details and it was only when discussing the MC with George's grandson (We had both found information indicating the story was untrue)that I revisited the cards and realised the difference ie George 1814/15 Star, Hugh not , and I posted my request on the site just to make sure my interpretation was correct ie he was not at Gallipoli.

I can only thank everyone one who has posted replies for me, it has been enlightening even if I do not recognise a lot of the abbreviations.

My impression now is that Hugh was shot in Nov/Dec 1917 , that a good friend(not George, he wasn't there) applied a tourniquet  and dragged him to safety under enemy fire, probably not from No Mans Land The picture probably show Hugh with wound stripe sometime after returning to the Western Theatre in 1918. 
Unresolved is why my mother and her siblings thought it was George that saved him and Lionised him for the rest of his life, also why the families thought that George was awarded the MC for saving him, after all George and Hugh were both still alive and obviously knew the truth. 
Thanks again for your help.

 

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, derrickduncan said:

Unresolved is why my mother and her siblings thought it was George that saved him and Lionised him for the rest of his life, also why the families thought that George was awarded the MC for saving him, after all George and Hugh were both still alive and obviously knew the truth. 

There is often a kernel of truth in family stories but it was over 100 years ago.  There is little or no doubt they fought together in Palestine until George left for his commission. Probably Hugh was in  awe of his friend and comrade and over the years things got a little mangled.  We should honour them both.