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Medal Record Index cards


derrickduncan
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My grandfather Hugh Paton and his best friend George Young were both machine gunners in the Royal Scots Fusiliers Regiment Nos 7524 and 7523. They fought together at Gallipoli 1915 and Palestine 1916, When the Machine Gun Corps came into being they became parts of that unit Nos 56256 and 56248 George was sent for officer training in November 1916 and they were split up. On looking at their medal cards George has been awarded the 1914/15 star while Hugh hasnt. Anyone got any suggestions?1819728618_HughPatonMedalCard.jpg.9d1478cc8e38484beb253cfd4a3fc1f1.jpg1490904928_GeorgeYoungMedalCard.jpg.d487d10318d25de7e6519c86677905d5.jpg

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He may have a separate card for the Star. I'll have a look.

BillyH.

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There does not appear to be a separate medal index card for Hugh, and he doesn't appear on a medal roll for the star.

I would venture to say that they may have served together in Palestine - but not at Gallipoli.

BillyH.

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YOUNG's MIC is for entry into theatre of war 3 = Egypt at that date [20-5-15]

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

YOUNG's MIC is for entry into theatre of war 3 = Egypt at that date [20-5-15]

I think they usually went to Gallipoli via Egypt?    BillyH.

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21 minutes ago, BillyH said:

I think they usually went to Gallipoli via Egypt?

Agreed that Egypt was a route taken to Gallipoli [as to why 3 on some MIC and on others 2(B) [Balkans] on others - presumably the latter went directly/to Imbro etc.].

But wasn't Egypt a route into Palastine too?

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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Might be worth looking at those BWM & VM MGC Medal Rolls to see if there is any extra info ,though I fear unlikely as MGC [Unfortunately I don't have access].

PATON has MGC/101 B37 Page 3342

YOUNG has MGC/101 B37 Page 3341

And of course is there a SR for PATON ?? [though I don't have access]

And there are Officer's Papers for YOUNG https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1137508 [unfortunately not digitised]

M

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I had already checked for Hugh Paton's medal rolls (nothing helpful) and for service or pension papers (none).

The two medal rolls for Young do not add anything useful.

BillyH.

 

Edited by BillyH
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They went straight to Mudros on the HMTS Mauritania, then to Gallipoli, their friends went to Egypt then on to Salonica. George’s 3 theatres of war , were Gallipoli 8 months, Palestine 11 months and France 15 months. Hugh was in Gallipoli for about a month before being shot during an attack on the Turkish Trenches, then evacuated for rest and recuperation. He then spent a further 27 months in Egypt and Palestine, being wounded again in November 2017. Don’t know if he then went on to France.

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By their service numbers they would both show up on the same page of the (MGC) 15 Star roll, but only Young does.  On the (MGC) BWM/VM roll you can see several pages  the whole group of RSF men transferred to MGC with a block of consecutive numbers, but  by the same token only a couple of them appear on the 15 Star roll - both 4th battalion  RSF and with different dates of entry.  They do not appear to be elsewhere on RSF rolls. 

 

41804_625537_9977-00049.jpg

Edited by david murdoch
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George Young served with the 4th Battalion RSF.  Their war diary makes interesting reading as it dates from the mobilisation of the Battalion and notes around half initially volunteered for overseas service.  This led to the formation of a composite battalion which was then broken up and eventually the 4th embarked from Liverpool on the 20th May on the Mauretania. They left Liverpool the following day, as the clerks compiling the rolls were relying on service records the MGC Roll for Young gives the date of sailing as 'leaving his native shore'.  This happens a lot and causes considerable confusion, (it was something I had to unpick when researching my grandfather who went to the Dardanelles with the SWB.)

It appears they left 56 other ranks behind with the transport to follow on another ship.  Details of the journey are not given, one soldier drowned on route on the 22nd May and they arrived at Mudros Bay on the 29th May.  There is no indication they put in at Egypt, the usual staging was Malta.  It notes the Machine Gun Section and half the Battalion landed without opposition on 'V' Beach later that day at 7pm.  As posted above entitlement to the 14-15 Star for MGC men seems to have been listed in regimental groups (with some exceptions) 

21 minutes ago, derrickduncan said:

Hugh was in Gallipoli for about a month before being shot during an attack on the Turkish Trenches, then evacuated for rest and recuperation.

 What evidence is there that Hugh was in Gallipoli?

If he is in the Casualty Records then he was entitled to the Star.  

Consider 7567/200304 Matthews enlisted 3 November 1913, posted to the 2/4th either unable or unwilling to serve overseas.  How old was Hugh? He could not go on active service until aged nineteen. Pte Matthews embarked in a draft on 14th January 1916 joining the 1/4th in Egypt on the 6th February 1916.  Could just be a misinterpretation of the service record, though such egregious admin errors  were rare.

The MG Companies in the 52nd (Lowland) Division was formed in March 1916

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3 hours ago, kenf48 said:

MGC Roll for Young gives the date of sailing as 'leaving his native shore'.  This happens a lot and causes considerable confusion

20-5-15 Thus seems to have caught me out above for YOUNG

3 hours ago, kenf48 said:

they arrived at Mudros Bay on the 29th May.  There is no indication they put in at Egypt, the usual staging was Malta.

I'm puzzled that ToW (3) [Egypt] is recorded for YOUNG - as I thought Malta was not a ToW [not (3)] and Imbros/Mudros Bay was usually considered (2B).

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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I have nothing but family oral history from my mother and Grandmother.(The Gallipoli reference was second or third-hand from my elder brother.) My mother had told me the same story as told by my brother but with no reference as to where it had happened. The story was that during an attack on the Turkish lines Hugh was shot and fell bleeding profusely , he shouted for stretcher bearers with little hope due to the number of men falling and the  noise of battle when George arrived at his side, applied a tourniquet and dragged him back to the British Lines, thus saving his life. 

On reading the medal card I immediately dismissed my brothers part in the story, but then on examining the photograph we have of Hugh in uniform, I began to wonder if maybe he had served in gallipoli.

Reasons. While serving in Gallipoli the soldiers had to endure wearing the Western Theatre serge uniforms as shown in his photograph.

Hugh was part of the MCG after March 1916 but the uniform doesn't have the telltale crossed Machine Guns on the lapels.

Hugh has a wound stripe on his sleeve, given that these uniforms were replaced Jan/Feb 1916 Hugh must have been wounded before that. THe new linen uniforms are shown in Georges picture taken March after he was promoted to Sergeant. ,  Confused ? I am!

 

 

Hugh Paton , Late 1915 Early 1916 No MGC badges on collar , wound stripe on arm, original serge uniform..jpg

p-Jan -Mar 1915 Sergeant George,Young Royal Scots Fusiliers with Janet and Maggie.jpg

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22 minutes ago, derrickduncan said:

Hugh Paton , Late 1915 Early 1916 No MGC badges on collar , wound stripe on arm, original serge uniform..jpg

Wound stripes were not authorised until after July 1916 [though could be authorised for earlier wounds] - so photo must be later than that date

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-a-wound-stripe 

The bandolier and riding whip also rather puzzle me - perhaps we need @FROGSMILE to consider these photos.

Second photo doesn't have a visible Wound stripe - which would seem reasonable if the photo was March 1916 [or am I confused over the date of this second photo?]

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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32 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm puzzled that ToW (3) [Egypt] is recorded for YOUNG - as I thought Malta was not a ToW [not (3)] and Imbros/Mudros Bay was usually considered (2B)

No Malta was not a theatre of war what the clerks have done is shown dates of embarkation as date' entered theatre of war' 100+ years on' I doubt we can criticise them.  The Medal Rolls were merely an administrative instrument fro the issue of the 'war medals' not to be pored over by researchers in the 21st Century. In any event wherever their journey took them it's not relevant, the date on the roll is the date of embarkation from Liverpool.

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1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

No Malta was nota theatre of war what the clerks have done is shown dates of embarkation as date' entered theatre of war' 100+ years on' I doubt we can criticise them.  The Medal Rolls were merely an administrative instrument fro the issue of the 'war medals' not to be pored over by researchers in the 21st Century.

No. not to criticise - just wondering how such annotations could have been made.  And how they may fit into this story.

George YOUNG's date rather seems sorted now.

But ToWs seems of much relevance in this thread too.

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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21 minutes ago, derrickduncan said:

I have nothing but family oral history from my mother and Grandmother.(The Gallipoli reference was second or third-hand from my elder brother.) My mother had told me the same story as told by my brother but with no reference as to where it had happened. The story was that during an attack on the Turkish lines Hugh was shot and fell bleeding profusely , he shouted for stretcher bearers with little hope due to the number of men falling and the  noise of battle when George arrived at his side, applied a tourniquet and dragged him back to the British Lines, thus saving his life. 

On reading the medal card I immediately dismissed my brothers part in the story, but then on examining the photograph we have of Hugh in uniform, I began to wonder if maybe he had served in gallipoli.

Reasons. While serving in Gallipoli the soldiers had to endure wearing the Western Theatre serge uniforms as shown in his photograph.

Hugh was part of the MCG after March 1916 but the uniform doesn't have the telltale crossed Machine Guns on the lapels.

Hugh has a wound stripe on his sleeve, given that these uniforms were replaced Jan/Feb 1916 Hugh must have been wounded before that. THe new linen uniforms are shown in Georges picture taken March after he was promoted to Sergeant. ,  Confused ? I am!

 

 

Hugh Paton , Late 1915 Early 1916 No MGC badges on collar , wound stripe on arm, original serge uniform..jpg

p-Jan -Mar 1915 Sergeant George,Young Royal Scots Fusiliers with Janet and Maggie.jpg

These photos do not show the same man, and yet that’s what you seem to be suggesting if I’ve interpreted your words correctly?

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Just to add, I'm not seeing any casualty list entry for H Paton RSF 7524. Tried various methods with no luck.

If that is him with a wound stripe my first suggestion would be that the wound would be May-July 1917 or after April 1918.

There seems to be another Hugh Paton RSF 41067, died 28/3/18. Added to avoid confusion.

TEW

 

 

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FS perhaps seems to have been looking at the faces [?] - though I know he will have looked at the uniforms and likely have thoughts on those too.

I was thinking the bandolier and whip rather smacked of artillery, rather than infantry [Edit:  Possibly mounted MGC? - but other badges??] - I await the judgement of others!

Were there any other family members who were perhaps in the artillery?

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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24 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Wound stripes were not authorised until after July 1916 [though could be authorised for earlier wounds] - so photo must be later than that date

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-a-wound-stripe 

The bandolier and riding whip also rather puzzle me - perhaps we need @FROGSMILE to consider these photos.

Second photo doesn't have a visible Wound stripe - which would seem reasonable if the photo was March 1916 [or am I confused over the date of this second photo?]

M

Sorry, should have been clearer, the second photograph isn’t Hugh but George in the new linen uniform he was issued, jan/feb/March 1916, It does not yet have the crossed machine guns so not yet MGC. 

I had considered the one of Hugh in a drivers uniform as being from later in the war when I think they transferred to the Western Front, but if he was in the MGC the lapels should have the crossed machine gun badges. I’m struggling to get my head round this, could he have transferred to another battalion due to his wound.Hugh was in Palestine 1916-1919. and would be wearing the linen uniform during most of that time, except perhaps Jan/Feb, depends when he got his new uniform.

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15 minutes ago, TEW said:

Just to add, I'm not seeing any casualty list entry for H Paton RSF 7524. Tried various methods with no luck.

If that is him with a wound stripe my first suggestion would be that the wound would be May-July 1917 or after April 1918.

There seems to be another Hugh Paton RSF 41067, died 28/3/18. Added to avoid confusion.

TEW

Yes I’ve looked on and off for years and only ever found the medal record.

May to July 1917 he was serving in Palestine and would have been wearing the lighter coloured linen uniform.

Also  there was a Hugh Dunlop Paton 41563 a cousin , on records as being from West Kilbride but actually from Cambuslang, his parents were originally from West Kilbride. Hugh is commemorated on the West Kilbride memorial as well as the Cambuslang. It is this Hugh Paton who was confused with my grandfather resulting in my grandfather not being recorded as a villager having served in the war.

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16 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

FS perhaps seems to have been looking at the faces [?] - though I know he will have looked at the uniforms and likely have thoughts on those too.

I was thinking the bandolier and whip rather smacked of artillery, rather than infantry [Edit:  Possibly mounted MGC? - but other badges??] - I await the judgement of others!

Were there any other family members who were perhaps in the artillery?

M

Picture definitely my grandfather, it is in a double frame with my grandmother on the other side. My mother kept in on her dressing table till the day she died. I have searched and found this standard get up for artillery, Army Service Corps and all battalion drivers, so there is no help to be had there. 

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33 minutes ago, derrickduncan said:

Sorry, should have been clearer, the second photograph isn’t Hugh but George in the new linen uniform he was issued, jan/feb/March 1916,

My mistake earlier - I perhaps should have spotted/better read what you had earlier written - yes, so two men George in a new linen uniform in 1916

and Hugh in khaki SD - with wound stripe [but thus must be photographed later in the war]

I don't know much about the MGC, but think they had mounted later in the war?  Don't know if they had to have collar badges as well as shoulder titles - this is where we need a MGC / uniforms member to step up!

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

These photos do not show the same man, and yet that’s what you seem to be suggesting if I’ve interpreted your words correctly?

No, one is Hugh and one is George, I have uploaded to show the uniform worn after Jan/Feb/Mar 1916(George- lighter uniform) Hugh - darker uniform is that worn on the Western Front and Gallipoli by the 52 Division

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20 minutes ago, derrickduncan said:

No, one is Hugh and one is George, I have uploaded to show the uniform worn after Jan/Feb/Mar 1916(George- lighter uniform) Hugh - darker uniform is that worn on the Western Front and Gallipoli by the 52 Division

It looks as if Hugh was in the transport section of his MGC unit, which was quite substantial in order to administer the prolific amounts of ammunition needed by machine gun companies (after early 1918 machine gun battalions).  That is evidenced by his bandolier.
George is wearing typical khaki drill (which wasn’t linen but a very stout (heavy) cotton twill), as was worn in the MEF (Gallipoli inclusive) during the hot months.  It was only in the colder months and at night (when temperatures plummeted) that mixed dress of wool serge (SD) and khaki drill were worn.  Both men appear to have short, large lettered shoulder titles, which is commensurate with the MGC practice.  Conversely the RSF titles were smaller and in at least two parts (more if Territorials).

D7CCF8B4-03C9-4B0E-9E9C-1E5D4288BD8C.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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