PJF Posted 16 June , 2003 Share Posted 16 June , 2003 Is the CWGC truly the definitive record? The reason for asking is that I've been researching some names on our local war memorial - and several of those whose names appear as killed in service on the memorial do not appear anywhere in the CWGC records (online), or also on the 'Soldiers Died' CD-ROM. For example, two names in particular I'm intrigued by (presumably brothers): Charles William Schwabon and Henry Robert Schwabon. Unusual names, I thought, and hence easy to trace ... Evidently not. Any thoughts or suggestions on where else I can try to trace them ...? PJF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 16 June , 2003 Share Posted 16 June , 2003 I have entered Schwabon into the 1881 census, and there is no-one of that name listed. Whereabouts is your war memorial? Have you tried the 1901 online census, or free BMD? Kelly's Directories are also useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 June , 2003 Share Posted 16 June , 2003 There is no truely definitive database list of casualties. All lists have some names missing. Even though the CWGC list is the 'official' one, it still has omissions as does SDGW. Your names could be on the CWGC list but spelt differently. This frequently happens. They may have died after discharge and not accepted as dying of war causes by CWGC or they may have died after the cut off date of 31.08.21. There are many names on local war memorials which do not appear in the CWGC list for a variety of reasons - often the war memorial is in error! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 As an example two of the 97 names on the Bury Grammar School war memorial do not appear on the CWGC database. One died in a shipwreck at Cape Horn in August 1914 (ie an Act of God rather than the enemy), the other was a Canadian who was wounded at 2nd Ypres, returned to Canada,was discharged and died in 1917. It was apparently not recorded as a war death. From talking to other researchers this seems fairly typical. The CWGC and Soldiers Died in the Great War databases inevitably contain errors given the sheer number of entries with ample opportunity for typographical errors etc. Two random examples: there was some confusion about one of the soldiers' bodies discovered near Arras a couple of years ago because his unusual surname was spelt differently on the two databases-at first some researchers thought that he was missing from the CWGC records. When I was researching the 1940 Wormhoudt massacre a few years ago I discovered that at least two of the Royal Warwicks killed have the wrong date of death recorded on the CWGC database and on their headstones. The CWGC said that they would correct this on the next computer update and renovation of the graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Simon Bull Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Can I add another potential source of failure to find entries on the CWGC and SDITGW? On the War Memorial that I am researching, something like 20% of the men have first names recorded (presumably the ones they in fact used rather than their actual first names) which were not their true first names. In my particular case two of these men were called Smith which rendered tracking them down on the databases very difficult! Eg A man recorded as Henry Smith on the memorial in fact turned out to be called George Henry Smith. A man called Ernest Smith on the memorial in fact turned out to be Alfred Ernest Smith. A Second Word War casualty called Howard Watson on the memorial in fact turned out to be called Alfred Howard Watson. Can I add a tip? Try searching SDITGW with the town/village where the memorial is situated as the place of birth. This is likely to turn up some of the names you are looking for (ie if they are spelled wrongly on SDITGW, or "suffer" from the first name problem I have described) and also men who are not on the memorial and, maybe, should be. Simon Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 There are numerous discrepancies between the different types of 'databases' such as memorials, registers and headstones. Sometimes the data on the CWGC headstone does not tally with that on the GWGC written records. All the data were entered manually, often in a rush, and by a workforce many of whom did not speak English as their mother-tongue. Years ago, when computerisation first started there were experiments conducted to assess the efficiency of manual duplication of records. These showed that even in ideal test conditions there was still an error rate of 3%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Your names could be on the CWGC list but spelt differently. This frequently happens. They may have died after discharge and not accepted as dying of war causes by CWGC or they may have died after the cut off date of 31.08.21. PJF On this occasion it appears that your local war memorial is at fault. The CWGC has the correct names, confirmed by the 1901 census. the name was Schwaben not Schwabon. 2 young men of almost certain German origin, who made the ultimate sacrifice fighting for the allied cause. Click on the links here & here The 1901 census lists Charles and Harry living in Kings Norton, Worcester, aged 14 and 11 respectively. Both born in Edinburgh. Their mother and sisters were living in Chiswick, Middlesex. You will have to pay the money to get further census details but I suspect Hans Schwaben (a German subject) was their father. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Good work John. For interest, there is one on the 1881 census: Dwelling: 6 Germiston St Census Place: Barony, Lanark, Scotland Source: FHL Film 0203649 GRO Ref Volume 644-6 EnumDist 44 Page 14 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Isabella WRIGHT W 72 F Hopkirk, Roxburgh, Scotland Rel: Head Isabella WRIGHT U 38 F Jedburgh, Roxburgh, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: General Domestic Serv Robert WRIGHT U 34 M Jedburgh, Roxburgh, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Joiner James WRIGHT 9 M Jedburgh, Roxburgh, Scotland Rel: Grandson Occ: Scholar David R. WATT U 21 M Laurencekirk, Kincardine, Scotland Rel: Lodger Occ: Sorting Clerk Post Office Hans Walter SCHWABEN U 23 M Germany Rel: Lodger Occ: Draughtsman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Their names were no doubt anglicised - at least for the war memorial - after the war, because by then the name Schwaben would have been demonised by the self same place of ill-repute on the Somme. Certainly ,to a degree that would have made it unacceptable on a war memorial and probably for future day to day use. Interesting that they both died in the Middle East. I wonder if people of German extraction may have been sent to places where they wouldn't face other Germans. Perhaps not , since Robert Graves didn't get any such treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Ian Robert Grave's mother was German and his father of Irish descent. Therefore, as at that time a woman's nationality was that of her husbands, she would have been regarded as similar and Robert Graves would not have been regarded as German. On the other hand if the soldier's mother was British and his father German the mother would become German. Then the serving soldiers of these families were often placed in Labour Coys to ensure that they would not carry arms. I know of one elderly German whose brother died during WW1. The old man was not allowed to go to his brother's funeral which was approx. one hour away from where he lived. His wife was allowed to go but although she was English by birth she had to report at every police station in each village and town on the journey to have her papers stamped. The journey took her almost a day. When WW2 started this same lady, although her husband had died in 1918, had to be registered as a War alien as she was not officially recognised as being British. Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Some of my wife's ancestors were Germans who settled in Liverpool a few years before the outbreak of the war. They changed their name from Strolhein to Strolin. Frederick (originally Friedrich) Strolin of 2nd Cameronians was killed in October 1916 and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Lynott Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Henry Robert SCHWABEN Pte 1984 10th Bn Middx Reg att. to 2nd Bn Norfolk Reg, died of dysentry on 29/7/15, he is buried at Asaui, 14 miles from Nasareyh. He was born in Edinburgh on 17/7/89. His father Hans Walter SCHWABEN was born in Gelsenkirchen, Germany and was brought to England by his parents in 1875, he died on 25/5/14. His mother was Helena Geraldine nee JORDAN of 5 Fairfax Road, Bedford Park, Chiswick London. Her father Peter Henry Jordan served in the 60th Rifles throughout the Crimea and Indian Mutiny. Henry was educated in Birmingham(which is probably the Kings Norton connection and is very much in Birmingham these days and not Worcestershire) Henry served in the Kings Royal Rifles Cadets and then for 3 or 4 years in the Royal Bucks Hussars. He enlisted in the 10th Bn Middx Reg in the seconf week of August 1914. he was 1 of 16 selected for the Bns Scout Section and in Oct 1914 was posted to India. He voluntered for service in the Persian Gulf and was att. to the 2nd Bn Norfolks in Feb 1915 Source: De Ruvigny There is a photograph Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Terry Denham as yr keeping a track on this thread can you tell me what to do to correct an error on CWGC. Gdmn C E Gransden 2/GG on CWGC website has killed 29 Oct 1915 - plausible as he is commemorated on Loos memorial and 2/GG participated in the 29 Oct offensive at Loos. However on Soldiers Died he was killed 29 Oct 1914 and today I looked at his service records at Wellington Barracks, which confirmed he was wounded and missing 29 Oct 1914 and was later presumed to have died on or shortly after that date. I have copies of teh relevant pages if required. As indicated above he has no known grave therefore it is only the central records that need to be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Jon Was he a Gransden from Upchurch by any chance ? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 the other was a Canadian who was wounded at 2nd Ypres, returned to Canada,was discharged and died in 1917. It was apparently not recorded as a war death. Mark - Out of curiosity, have you got the name of the Canadian please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Mick - yes - also I got a copy of the Whitnell service record for you as well. He enlisted in June 1916, aged 37. KIA, as you know, July 1917. Married with two children. Lived 2 Shockfield Cottages, Lower Halstow - do these cottages still exist? His widow was still living there 40 yrs after his death when the Guards Association gave her a gratuity for some essential purchases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Signals Gather as much evidence as you can - service records, death certificate etc(SDGW will not cut any ice) and send it to Records Department Commonwealth War Graves Commission 2 Marlow Road Maidenhead Berkshire SL6 7DX I suggest you email them first on casualty.enq@cwgc.org and make your case. Follow this up by sending copies of your evidence to the responding officer. Do not expect an instant correction as they will have to check with MoD etc. Unless you have cast iron evidence it could take a long time! If you get stuck, email me off Forum and I'll see if I can help. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJF Posted 17 June , 2003 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Many thanks for the very useful information, I'm amazed at how quickly you've all responded. The memorial is in Bedford Park (Chiswick). There are a few other unusual names but I'll try the CWGC site with a variety of spellings. I'm not familiar with the reference to De Ruvigny, can anyone explain exactly what this is? PJF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Many thanks Terry. I will contact them tomorrow. I dont have the death certificate but hopefully the entries in his service record will suffice. I cant imagine they would dispute it but possibly stranger things have happened ... as an example ... I have only ever queried a date of death with the CWGC once before but never had a reply. As it turned out I think I later found they were right but it was an enquiry I made for a HMS Vanguard seaman recorded as killed 9 July 1916 when the Vanguard was destroyed 9 July 1917. A sheer coincidence his ship exploded exactly a year to the day of his death. I am a little more certain this time and will scan the service record and send to the email address you provided, then wait to hear further. I only mentioned the SDGW as normally I would give precedence to the CWGC records, as infact I mentally had done on this occasion. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 Jon Thanks for getting Whitnell's papers for me. I'll contact you for a beer or two. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 17 June , 2003 Share Posted 17 June , 2003 PJF The Marquis de Ruvigny compiled 5 volumes of Rolls of Honour, comprising around 10,000 names of officers and men, mostly with photographs. The obits are of the style found in the local press, and it is a very useful resource. Is it me, or does deRuvigny appear to have a disproportionate number of Scottish entries? and before angered Caledonians take me to task for that question, I am irritated by the Marquis's introduction, which he opens by stating "these men have laid down their lives for England". Mmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 18 June , 2003 Share Posted 18 June , 2003 Kate I've thought that myself. There seems to be a couple of guys in scots uniforms on every page (but I suppose there were a lot of Scots serving). I've also noticed lots of matelots from the same ships (especially the Bulwark). I wonder if the marketing was targeted at specific groups of relatives ? I know what you mean about the 'England' thing. I'm English but feel myself cringing when the word 'England' is used instead of 'Britain', etc. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 18 June , 2003 Share Posted 18 June , 2003 Mark - Out of curiosity, have you got the name of the Canadian please? The 'missing' Canadian was Sydney Ainsworth Olive, originally from Walmersley, Bury who emigrated to Toronto. He was wounded in the leg by a bursting shell near St Julien on 28th April 1915. His vision was also impaired. He was sent back to Canada and invalided out. Unfortunately his service record does not give a date of death but on later paperwork his wife is described as 'widow' and he is marked as 'died' on the Roll of Honour printed in the 1918 school yearbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 19 June , 2003 Share Posted 19 June , 2003 Kate Re. your mention of deRuvigny and his use of the word England instead of Britain etc. There is a chapter "Celtic Pride or Imperial Propaganda" in Angela Gaffney's book "Aftermath" in which she talks about the use of the word England epecially when looking at commemoration in Wales. One example of this use of England instead of Britain on a memorial is in Mid Wales and reads as follows: In Honoured Memory of the Men of the Parishes of Builth Wells & Llanddewir Cwm who laid down Their Lives in The Great War 1914-1918 True love by life True love by death - is tried Live thou for England We for England died Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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