James Ditchburn 27/192 - 27th(Tyneside Irish) Northumberland Fusiliers

[Angela Wren]

afternoon,

 

I am trying to trace the action of my great grandad James Ditchburn. I found some information on ancestry.co.uk but I would like to know where he was shot and how. I think the date is the 16/10/16. I know it is also probably impossible but would like to see a picture of him as a younger man. regimental number 27/192 

thank you for any help

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Angela Wren said:

I would like to know where he was shot and how. I think the date is the 16/10/16

Not sure how you know the date, but ...

If that is the correct date and if he was with the 27th Bn, Northumberland Fusileirs that date then their War Diary may give you a general idea on what was going on that day. Unlikely to mention him by name.

Currently free to download after a free registration with the National Archives. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353922 

M

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Angela Wren said:

would like to see a picture of him as a younger man

Individual photos of soldiers were privately commissioned/purchased. 

Your best chance is that for some reason [e.g. enlistment, mobilisation, an interesting letter sent home, wounding, gallantry, return etc.] his photo might perhaps have been placed there by his family and have appeared in a local newspaper.

I believe the British Newspaper Archive, also on Find My Past I believe, is one potential source. https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk 

Wishing you very good luck.

M

[Acknown]

He may not have been in the 27th Battalion at the time of the wounding you report, unless you have additional information. His medal roll entry (Ancestry) also lists the 11th Battalion:

That said, the 11th Battalion was in the YPRES area in Oct 16 and was out of the front line, reporting no casualties at that time. The 27th was in billets in ARMENTIERES, but found a party (6 officers, 100 other ranks - ORs) to raid the German trenches at the RAILWAY SALIENT on 12 Oct, during which three officers were wounded, two ORs were killed, 11 ORs were wounded and 4 ORs reported missing. The battalion returned to the trenches on 16 Oct, but reported no further casualties until 23 Oct.

So, if you are sure about the month, the 27th Battalion is more likely, but the date of his wounding may be 12 Oct, though you may have better information.

Acknown

[Toontraveller]

16 hours ago, Angela Wren said:

afternoon,

 

I am trying to trace the action of my great grandad James Ditchburn. I found some information on ancestry.co.uk but I would like to know where he was shot and how. I think the date is the 16/10/16. I know it is also probably impossible but would like to see a picture of him as a younger man. regimental number 27/192 

thank you for any help

Angela, good morning and welcome to the Forum. 

I am not sure how much you already know about the 27 th Northumberland Fusiliers ( NF) ( 4 th Tyneside Irish) which your great granddad served with during WW1.  My great granddad also served in the 24 th (NF) ( 1 st Tyneside Irish) and 24 th/27th  ( NF ) Battalion before being transferred to the 14 th(NF) Battalion as the 24/27 th (NF) ( Tyneside Irish )were disbanded as part of the reorganisation of the British Army in February 1918 . 

I thought at this stage your great granddad might have transferred from 24/27 th NF to the 11th NF in Feb 1918 but can not see a  record in the War Diary’s of any soldiers transferring  to the 11 th NF at that time suggesting he transferred prior to Feb 1918, possibly after  he recovered from his wounds obtained on 16 th October 1916.

If you have access to Newspapers reporting  ( free via some  Public library’s) you may be able to locate a trace of him around that time being reported in the Wounded returns in the local papers. ( I  don’t have access) 

If you have the opportunity to borrow from your library or purchase from an online book store a book written by John Sheen - Tyneside Irish- 24th, 25 th, 26, th, 27 th Battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers  it tells the history of the Tyneside Irish who were raised in the North East in WW.1 ( ISBN 0- 850252-587- X) . ( I don’t have any connection to the author !) but recommend it as it has helped me and a lot of others to understand the movements and what they had to endure.

As mentioned by Matlock above it is worth looking up the War Diary' from The National Archives ( currently free of charge) to download, just need to register.They don’t usually name “other ranks” (OR) normally only officers are named but occasionally OR’s are mentioned. 

In John Sheens book  there are nominal rolls of the soldiers attached to the various battalions and on page 250, your great granddad  is recorded as 27 th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers ( 4 th Tyneside Irish) J . Ditchburn. Private 27/192 ( service number)attached to D Company,  home address as 45 Harrington Street, Sunderland. 
recorded as wounded 16 October ( no year) posted to 24/27th NF and 11 th NF. 

The 27 th NF were formed in Newcastle on 15 th January 1915 after a very successful recruitment campaign had already raised three other Tyneside Irish Battalion’s( 24 th, 25 th, 26 th) .The 27 th NF sailed over to France on 11 th January 1916 .

They were involved in the 1 st July 1916 Battle of the Somme where The Tyneside Irish suffered tremendous losses. After the Battle the 24 th and 27 th Battalions were joined to form the 24/27 th.( NF) Tyneside Irish ) Battalion . Based on the timeline of events I suspect he was still with the 24/27 th NF ( Tyneside Irish) when he was wounded in October 1916.

 

Edited 11 April , 2022 by Toontraveller

[George Rayner]

Welcome Angela

Before I set off on one of my red herring trails could you share your GGrandfather's dates please?

George

[Angela Wren]

That is brilliant thank you so much. That is definitely the address as That was where my grandma was born. Thank you all so much for your help. I have some reading to do. This is the gentleman in question but when he was recalled for round 2 to defend Sunderland. I do know his party trick was to make his bullet wound in his chest whistle. He smoked woodbine all his life and eventually worked as a miner and still managed to live into his 60s. Thank you all you have been amazing

[Angela Wren]

Certainly George he was born 19th May 1887 and died on the 17 December 1961. Born in Sunderland and died in Durham

[George Rayner]

The reason for asking was I'd come across that photo in Ancestry Trees! 

Can you positively link him to 27/192 through documents or medals?

George

[Angela Wren]

Yes possibly my tree is on there. Yes I can I've his medal card and the roll of individuals

[George Rayner]

Thank you. Although I can't see the link with dates, places etc. He has a pension card which isn't helpful either

George

[Matlock1418]

29 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

He has a pension card which isn't helpful either

At WFA/Fold3:  James DITCHBURN, 192, NF

George is partly right in that it doesn't clarify which battalion he was with, however it does have a little of interest [hopefully!] ...

He was transfered to the NF Z Reserve, 24-3-19, and received a disability pension of 6/10 pw from 25-3-19 to 23-3-20 [the Z Reserve would indicate that he was considered fit enough, or potentially fit enough, to be remobilised if necessary - if the Peace Treaty wasn't signed and it all kicked off again. Essentially this meant he went home to cibvilian life and was effectively demobbed from March 1919 - fortunately it wasn't required and the Z Reserve was disbanded in August 1920]

Such pensions could have been/often were only temporary to aid a man's recovery period. Unfortunately his main pension file will be long deliberately destroyed after its use was ended and having checked the very few retained 'PIN 26' disability files at the National Archives I didn't see his there].  Does rather look as though he substantally recovered post-war.

M

Edited 11 April , 2022 by Matlock1418
addit

[ianjonesncl]

Information from John Sheen's Tyneside Irish book

DITCHBURN J    27/192   D Company

45 Hartington Street  Sunderland

Wounded October 1916

To 24 / 27 .... 11th BNS .... Class Z Reserve