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Henry Curbishley - advice & guidance


PRC
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Looking to draw on the experience of those who have tried to get a non-commemoration case through where the individual has been discharged as a result of a catch-all medical condition, the medical board awards a pension for a much more specific condition, the individual then dieing in the qualifying period from the more specific condition.

What I'm looking at his Henry Curbishley, a married electro-plater from the East End of London who enlisted in the Norfolk Regiment at Stratford on the 24th August 1914.  Regimental number 12332. He was posted to the 7th Battalion who were then under canvas at Shorncliffe.

He was discharged on the 5th November 1914 - "Recruit within 3 months of enlistment considered unfit for service Para 392 (iii) (c) K.R - (Morbus Cordis)".

As I understand it Morbus Cordis at that time was used a diagnosis of heart disease where the cause was not known.

In June 1915 Henry applied for a disability pension. Here's the summary of the Medical Boards findings from when it sat in August 1915.

1531984747_HenryCurbishleyMedicalBoardcrop.jpg.26373bf714eb44c9e1c2a2a642b61680.jpg

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

So Pulmonary Tuberculosis attributable to his military service. Attestation says he had no previous military service, so the period 24th August 1914 to the 5th November 1914 is the only one in the frame.

From a wider reading around I understand the medical profession was coming to the realisation the the Tuberculosis bacilli in the early stages of infection could actually be asymptomatic in the lungs or with very minor impact, but spread to other internal organs, particularly the heart muscle, where symptoms would then manifest themselves. As the hosts body weakened then the lung infection could kick in, often at a far more advanced stage than would be expected.

A Silver War Badge was authorised for him on the 27th January 1917 with the KR392 (iii) (c) Morbus Cordis reason stated on the SWB Roll. It was issued on the 7th February 1917. But by then it was too late. His widows pension card states Henry died on the 28th January 1917. Filling out the abbreviations and contraction I believe it reads "Died 28-1-17 Pulmonary Tuberculosis contracted on active service".

1824564859_HenryCurbishlyWidowsPensioncardcauseofdeathcrop.jpg.ea297331c2a8d5c9e300e474a21c4b86.jpg

Image courtesy Fold3

Obviously that's subject to confirmation via a death certificate.

So is Henrys' non-commemoration case going to be handicapped by the vagary of his discharge diagnosis

And has this case been considered before or is it known to be going through the system now.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
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1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

So is Henrys' non-commemoration case going to be handicapped by the vagary of his discharge diagnosis

Possibly - the CWGC aren't overly keen on the Pension Records, especially so with TB.

Craig

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Assuming the cause of death was in fact TB then it looks fairly clear cut to my eyes, the medical report you posted above states that TB originated on and was due to military service during the war. The short period of service could be an issue but I would expect it to be ok.

He's not been put forward by IFCP.

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@ss002d6252 and @PaulC78

Thanks for your feedback.

I'm aiming to put this one in, if only to see how absolute the CWGC are about cause of death being related specifically to the cause of discharge being an illness attributable or aggravated by service.

The only case I've had accepted so far was discharged for turberculosis and subsequently died of that condition. However it took two appeals before it was accepted that the condition was aggravated by his service - the second successful appeal only a few weeks before he died. If the CWGC had just looked at his status at the time he left the army then there would have been grounds for rejecting the non-comm case - so there must be some leeway in the system.

My heart tells me there is some similar here. Henry Curbishley is discharged with heart disease, of unknown cause. He subsequently is diagnosed with tuberculosis, which in some cases can manifest itself as heart disease before developing the symptoms associated with infection of the lungs. I don't think he had two seperate conditions, heart disease + tuberculosis, but heart disease caused by tuberculosis, and therefore cause of discharge in reality is likely to be the same as cause of death.

The decision of the medical board in June 1915 to my mind enhances the original diagnosis of heart disease rather than adding something new to the mix.

But first of I'd better get a death certificate !

Cheers,
Peter

 

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4 hours ago, PRC said:

I'm aiming to put this one in, if only to see how absolute the CWGC are about cause of death being related specifically to the cause of discharge being an illness attributable or aggravated by service.

Peter,

Would be very pleased if you could/would test the water again - I await your feedback with much interest.

4 hours ago, PRC said:

If the CWGC had just looked at his status at the time he left the army then there would have been grounds for rejecting the non-comm case - so there must be some leeway in the system.

Unfortunately I have had a TB case where my efforts at CWGC failed as though there was clear pension card evidence of the MoP accepting his death as caused/aggavated by service. First first he got a disability pension - and his widow & child a pension afterwards.

CWGC wouldn't accept it.  CWGC took his earlier discharge Medical Board note above all else.  Pension card considered very unfavourably! [as apparently, according to CWGC, MoP were prone to errors! - Weren't the miltary likewise? And weren't/aren't I/CWGC?] Unfortunately I have not [yet?] been able to find any further evidence that CWGC would find acceptable.

Fortunately your Medical Board report seems rather more helpful than the one I had.

Just being cautionary - prior to you spending your cash on a DC.

Two points of interest to me really = Obviously wishing you good luck, if you proceed.

M

Edit For interest: Here is the guide used by the MoP regarding Phthisis / TB - unfortunately I don't have a note of the date of it so can't advise if it was in use in 1917

Phthisis.png.bec687883a17e8ce86fbf8a842f032c3.png

Apologies, not made a note of where I obtained it either - suspect it was GWF and most likely @ss002d6252 - Thanks for it.

Point (2) seems potentially applicable here - but even if good enough for MoP, CWGC don't seem to like/accept it [or to have not proved an evidence-based contrary case in my example mentioned above - so why do they not accept MoP had a decent handle on such conditions???]

= Hoping for confirmation of what date used from please.

Edited by Matlock1418
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29 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Apologies, not made a note of where I obtained it either - suspect it was GWF and most likely @ss002d6252 - Thanks for it.

Page 16 of the first annual report of the MoP, for the year to 31 March 1918.

Craig

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Just now, ss002d6252 said:

Page 16 of the first annual report of the MoP, for the year to 31 March 1918.

Thanks Craig.  But when used from??

M

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It's a bit difficult to ascertain exactly when, at present, but it appears that it probably coincided with the 1917 RW.

Craig

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2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

it probably coincided with the 1917 RW

and a quick reminder - when did that RW run from/to? [??? to 30 Apr 1918?]

M

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Just now, Matlock1418 said:

and a quick reminder - when did that RW run from/to? [??? to 30 Apr 1918?]

M

01 April 17 to 30 April 1918

Craig

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1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

01 April 17 to 30 April 1918

So, likely, from just a wee bit later than the death of Henry CURBISHLEY on 28.1.1917

How very inconvenient for Peter and his case!

M

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Rejected cases would typically be subject to appeal and re-assessment under the new rules.

Craig

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35 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Rejected cases would typically be subject to appeal and re-assessment under the new rules.

Either way the pension card show the MoP stumped up a disability pension for him and later a pension for his widow & child - and the latter was later updated to match the new 1917 RW.

Unfortunately no retained 'PIN 26' file at TNA

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Either way the pension card show the MoP stumped up a disability pension for him and later a pension for his widow & child - and the latter was later updated to match the new 1917 RW.

Probably just an MoP error :whistle:

Craig

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1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

Probably just an MoP error :whistle:

That's probaby how CWGC would view it !

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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  • 1 month later...

Well that took a bit longer than I intended, but case submitted today.

85747531_HenryCurbishly1917DeathCertificatesourcedGROcrop.png.0e9c70ddd7b6efd7bae8226c033d3c49.png

Home address ties up with Service and Discharge records, as well as the Pension Cards.
Date of death ties up with the Service and Discharge records, as well as the Widows Pension Card.
Age ties in with Service and Discharge records.
Service and Discharge records, as well as the Pension Cards, all show him to have become an Army Pensioner.
Service and Discharge records have him as an Electro-Plater vs Metal Polisher.
Cause of death Pulmonary Tuberculosis.

Now to find out how much weight CWGC gives to the Medical Board Decision that his Pulmonary Tuberculosis had been diagnosed as Morbus Cordis while he was still serving.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited by PRC
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Good luck.

On 25/05/2022 at 15:52, PRC said:

Now to find out how much weight CWGC gives to the Medical Board Decision that his Pulmonary Tuberculosis had been diagnosed as Morbus Cordis while he was still serving.

We all await with interest a further update.

Fingers crossed for you and Curbishley.

M

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Having seen him play for West Ham, one has to speculate  whether a note/e-mail etc to  Alan Curbishley  might just possibly elicit some further family-held information.  The coincidence of a fairly uncommon name and the same specific area makes it likely it is the same family.

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3 hours ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

Having seen him play for West Ham, one has to speculate  whether a note/e-mail etc to  Alan Curbishley  might just possibly elicit some further family-held information.  The coincidence of a fairly uncommon name and the same specific area makes it likely it is the same family.

There certainly aren't many Curbishley's in Essex at that time - just three on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, and two of those are Henry and his wife Eva. Unfortunately the couple only had a daughter, so unless she became a single-parent or married a Mr. Curbishley, then Alan wouldn't be a direct descendant.

Still shame in some ways that Alan didn't make England manager, (although not from a footballing sense) - getting an In from the Cold case through the system would make for a very different "Who do you think you are" :)

Cheers,
Peter

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