Pistol, Signal, No.1 MkIII and MkIII*

[Sarchet]

I've acquired a few of these so I thought I'd create a thread for them. I'll post them as I detail clean each one and photograph all of the markings. At some point I will be loading flares for them as well, and while I will not be documenting the process on this forum I'll post a video of them in use when I get to that point.

Starting off is a fairly bog standard MkIII* from Webley & Scott. Dated 1915, it has no muzzle bell nor any sign of having had one. The latch has been repaired with solder, and there are no sold out of service (-><-) markings present. It has the frame mounted safety that prevents the latch from moving if the hammer is cocked. 

The frame, hammer, and barrel share an assembly number (R9) in addition to full or partial serial numbers. Interestingly, the frame is serialized both under the grip and in the usual location on the exposed front right side.

The ejector cam, ejector, latch, and trigger guard all have partial serial numbers as well, all matching. The three flat springs are marked with Broad Arrows. No serialized part is non-matching. The latch has not been refinished around the repair, and damage to some of the screw heads suggests the repair was done post-service.

[trajan]

Thanks! Great to have something like this on the GWF!

Trajan

[AlanD]

Excellent photos!

[Sarchet]

On 05/04/2022 at 04:48, trajan said:

Thanks! Great to have something like this on the GWF!

Trajan

 

6 hours ago, AlanD said:

Excellent photos!

Thanks!

[4thGordons]

I have a very similar example....see if I can find my pics:

[Sarchet]

Next up is a Cogswell & Harrison MkIII. It has no bell or indication of having had one, and is dated 1916. No frame safety is present. Cogswell & Harrison made about 30k signal pistols, starting their numbering at about 50,000 which puts this example solidly in the middle of their production.

Both frame and barrel bear Sold Out Of Service opposed arrows. The frame is only serialized on the front right side, and does not bear a company logo unlike the Webley or Greener pistols.

The latch, ejector cam, hammer, trigger, and trigger guard all bear the last three digits of the serial number. Notably, no springs are marked with broad arrows, but the hammer spring is stamped "A" and the latch spring "L". The trigger spring is unmarked. The ejector is also unmarked.

 

@4thGordonsVery nice! Looks like it escaped being upgraded with the frame safety.

Edited 10 April , 2022 by Sarchet

[free1954]

very nice gentlemen. thanks for posting.

[Joolz]

One of mine, another Webley, this time a 1916 MkIII. Hardly used, all matching numbers.

[Sarchet]

Very nice example, the screws look like they are in much better shape than normal.

I'm curious, @4thGordons and @Joolz, do yours also have assembly numbers? I've only found them on Webleys so far. 

[Joolz]

Given that it's over 100 years old, I seriously doubt mine has seen much use, if any. It's pretty much pristine. The metalwork finish, for instance, barely shows any signs of wear and there are only a couple of dings in the brasswork/woodwork. As for assembly numbers, I haven't had it in bits to check for those. 

[AlanD]

In addition to Webley & Scott other manufactures of these signal pistols are Cogswell & Harrison, W W Greener, Wolseley and Chubb.

In addition to these British makers the Rifle Factory Ishapore also made an unknown quantity of these in the Great War. For more details of these and other signal pistols from around the world, there is a flare gun forum. https://flaregunforum.com/

 

On this forum I am running a survey of British Mk111 and Mk111* signal pistols if anyone would care to contribute.

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

[Sarchet]

@JoolzI wouldn't be surprised if it simply sat in a locker or arms room until it was sold in that condition. One of the assembly numbers may be visible on the ejector housing when the action is open - just passing curiosity though as to it's presence or absence.

@AlanDThanks for the tip, I'll head over and check that out. I believe I've contributed the information on my Cogswell and Greener pistols via Gunboards, missed out on a Chubb a little while back unfortunately. Do you want information on the Webleys as well? I have two to hand and a first-year one on the way.

[AlanD]

Interested in the first year example, thank you.

[garsia]

Friends. I'm trying to repair a  signal pistol, it came to me without a shock spring and an extractor pusher. Could you take photos with the dimensions of these parts ?

[museumtom]

It is illegal to do so.

[Sarchet]

11 minutes ago, museumtom said:

It is illegal to do so.

Depends on where he is. In the US these aren't even firearms.

@garsia If it's legal for you to make those repairs where you're at, I can take those measurements next time I have one apart. Not sure when that will be as I just finished making repairs to the latest one and got it back together. Probably best to email them in case hosting dimensioned prints would be contrary to forum rules or laws wherever the forum servers are. Be warned that these will require hand fitting and should be made slightly oversized to accommodate; flat springs in particular are a bit of an art to master making and you'll likely break a few before getting one that fits and is properly tempered. The proper names are the ejector cam and the mainspring, if that helps.

Edited 19 May , 2022 by Sarchet

[garsia]

In my country, it is a signaling means . Only adapters for firearms calibers are prohibited. I bought this WEBLEY MK III in such a technical condition, but it is very good. I want to try to put a shock spring from the revolver of the nagant system. Of course, this requires improvement. I need photos with dimensions. Thanks for any help.

[Sarchet]

W.W.Greener, of sporting shotgun fame, was given a small contract for the Signal Pistol MkIII. Out of a short run of 3-4,000, this one is numbered 657 and is dated 1915. 

The right side of the frame bears the Greener elephant, a trademark which allegedly came from an incident where Mr. Greener had been asked to put down a circus elephant.

All springs are marked with broad arrows, and the frame and barrel have been marked with the opposed arrows denoting it as sold out of service. The full serial number is present in the usual location as well as on the frame under the grips, the barrel, grip panels, trigger guard, hammer, ejector, trigger, and ejector cam. Fit, finish, and the quality of the checkering on the hammer spur and latch thumbpiece are high, which may have contributed to the short run - other wartime Signal Pistols are noticeably rougher.

[Sarchet]

And now, the crown jewel of my flare pistols. Introduced with LoC §15424 (23 August 1910 for Naval service, 9 February 1911 for Land service) the Pistol, Signal, Very's Cartridge Mark III was a minor update to the Mark II in which the trigger spring was improved and associated components altered. This example is the earliest that I know of, at serial #437 and dated 1911. The barrel has a smooth contour, like the only known MkII, rather than the common stepped contour which shows up as early as 1912.

This example unfortunately did receive a full set of alterations including the addition of a lanyard ring (LoC §17165, 3 Feb 1915) and the MkIII* belled muzzle and latch safety, with the * being added to the Mark at that point.

Assembly number 7 is present on the frame, barrel, and trigger guard; a full or partial serial is present on those components plus the grip panels, ejector cam, ejector, latch, trigger, and hammer. The springs and the latch spring screw bear Broad Arrows.

This signal pistol was badly neglected under the grips, and severe rust had taken hold on some steel components including the grip screw, which failed at both ends. A replacement screw was made, which required tracking down a 7-36 die (very close to the original 0.150-36 thread) and making a spacer ring so it could be used in a standard die handle.