Trench art lighter symbols - help requested

[Gunner 87]

Hello. 

This intriguing trench art lighter was recently won at auction in France. The Manx and Thistle symbols may well suggest a UK link and I am trying to identify the others in an effort to confirm who produced or had the artefact commissioned.

Any opinions very welcome. Gunner 87

 

[BillyH]

In the absence of any sensible answers I would suggest that the thistle has SB next to it  -  Scottish Borderers? or a soldiers initials?

BillyH.

[Terry_Reeves]

Top right (1916),  the insignia of the Isle of Man.

TR

 

Edited 11 March , 2022 by Terry_Reeves

[Gunner 87]

14 minutes ago, BillyH said:

In the absence of any sensible answers I would suggest that the thistle has SB next to it  -  Scottish Borderers? or a soldiers initials?

BillyH.

Hi Billy. thank you for taking the time to respond. Having spent hours on this now I think it's solved.... the radiator is actually a stirrup, the elephant with the S is likely 'Lizzie' who was drafted into Sheffield to replace horses that had been requisitioned by the army. Both the elephant and monkey are in circles that represent circus tents. In short, this most likely belonged to a member of a touring menangerie such as William Sedgwick or Bostock and Wombwell's. These travelling fairgrounds continued to operate during the war.  

[Gunner 87]

16 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Top right (1916),  the insignia of the Isle of Man.

TR

 

thanks Terry, see above for what I now think the symbols represent. The Isle of Man, is as you say plus Scotland represented by the thistles. 

[Terry_Reeves]

4 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

thanks Terry, see above for what I now think the symbols represent. The Isle of Man, is as you say plus Scotland represented by the thistles. 

Interesting item.

TR

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Gunner 87 said:

Hi Billy. thank you for taking the time to respond. Having spent hours on this now I think it's solved.... the radiator is actually a stirrup, the elephant with the S is likely 'Lizzie' who was drafted into Sheffield to replace horses that had been requisitioned by the army. Both the elephant and monkey are in circles that represent circus tents. In short, this most likely belonged to a member of a touring menangerie such as William Sedgwick or Bostock and Wombwell's. These travelling fairgrounds continued to operate during the war.  

Although I can see the resemblance, I don’t think that the ‘radiator’ is necessarily a stirrup, as it seems to have sharp corner points that would damage a horses flank and the protuberance at the top doesn’t follow the slotted design for stirrup leathers.  It does look more like a radiator with filling cap on the top. Presumably the R relates to the vehicle manufacturer if it is indeed an engine radiator.

Edited 11 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[michaeldr]

I'm inclined to agree that it is a radiator. Another interesting and possible transport connection is that Col Michael Young's Annex P in his book on the ASC 1902-1918, gives the Three Legs (IoM symbol) as the Unit Sign for ASC Company 290.

Alas I cannot tie in any of the others to the ASC.

[Gunner 87]

56 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Although I can see the resemblance, I don’t think that the ‘radiator’ is necessarily a stirrup, as it seems to have sharp corner points that would damage a horses flank and the protuberance at the top doesn’t follow the slotted design for stirrup leathers.  It does look more like a radiator with filling cap on the top. Presumably the R relates to the vehicle manufacturer if it is indeed an engine radiator.

 

49 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

I'm inclined to agree that it is a radiator. Another interesting and possible transport connection is that Col Michael Young's Annex P in his book on the ASC 1902-1918, gives the Three Legs (IoM symbol) as the Unit Sign for ASC Company 290.

Alas I cannot tie in any of the others to the ASC.

Frogsmile, michaeldr, that's very much appreciated.

I spent many hours looking for a radiator with an R on it, at first thinking Renault though they had a very distinct shape, and was unsuccessful. With regard the ASC Company 290 Unit Sign I will need to see this. I just looked on Amazon and its not available on kindle... 

Thank you both again, even though my theory might now be shot down in flames

Gunner 87

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 

Frogsmile, michaeldr, that's very much appreciated.

I spent many hours looking for a radiator with an R on it, at first thinking Renault though they had a very distinct shape, and was unsuccessful. With regard the ASC Company 290 Unit Sign I will need to see this. I just looked on Amazon and its not available on kindle... 

Thank you both again, even though my theory might now be shot down in flames

Gunner 87

The R might well have been added as an artistic flourish.  I know of no car manufacturer that had a large (single) R motif in the centre of its radiator as an indicator of marque.

Edited 11 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner 87]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The R might well have been added as an artistic flourish.  I know of no car manufacturer that had a large (single) R motif in the centre of its radiator as an indicator of marque.

Frogsmile, you might well be right. If you look on the side of this ASC vehicle it has an R which could indicate the unit...

Image courtesy of the LLT and IWM

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Frogsmile, you might well be right. If you look on the side of this ASC vehicle it has an R which could indicate the unit...

Image courtesy of the LLT and IWM

Possibly, but the three leafed shamrock is the more important symbol from a military viewpoint (principal element with enclosed R secondary) and so if connected I would’ve expected to see that rather than just the R. 

Edited 11 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner 87]

48 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Possibly, but the three leafed shamrock is the more important symbol is more important from a military viewpoint (principal element with enclosed R secondary) and so if connected I would’ve expected to see that rather than just the R. 

Now I said I was going to leave this alone for the night but I've just been sent a photograph of the 'spine' which appears to have five chevrons and TM 178 inscribed below ...

Searching online I have found a SWB Index Card belonging to Driver William Salter TM 178 451 Coy, 46th North Midland, ASC enlisted 05/01/15 discharged 25/05/16 under 352 KR.

@michaeldr

Edited 11 March , 2022 by Gunner 87

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Now I said I was going to leave this alone for the night but I've just been sent a photograph of the 'spine' which appears to have five chevrons and TM 178 inscribed below ... I know the ASC had the MT but again, this doesn't quite fit... 

@michaeldr

The TM suggests a numbered Trench Mortar battery.  The chevrons suggest perhaps overseas service for five years 1914-1918.

Edited 11 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner 87]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

The TM suggests a numbered Trench Mortar battery.  The chevrons suggest perhaps overseas service for five years 1914-1918.

I've edited the above to add the soldier I think this refer to. 

[Terry_Reeves]

The Shamrock symbol indicates rations.

TR

 

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Terry_Reeves said:

The Shamrock symbol indicates rations.

TR

 

Indeed it does. 

2 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

I've edited the above to add the soldier I think this refer to. 

Excellent work.  Got there in the end!

[Gunner 87]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Indeed it does. 

Excellent work.  Got there in the end!

The only issue is why he has 5 stripes on the lighter when he only served just over one year. William Salter died on the 06/10/1920 of VDH attributable to service. 

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

The only issue is why he has 5 stripes on the lighter when he only served just over one year. William Salter died on the 06/10/1920 of VDH attributable to service. 

A mystery it seems.

[davidbohl]

I can't offer up much about The Isle of Man and the significance of 1915 but they did try to bolster up the King's Liverpool, interesting read anyhow.

Dave

 

Isle of Man Examiner, Saturday, April 17, 1915

The Manx Company: Recruits Wanted.

The Company of Isle of Man Volunteers at present attached to the King's Liverpool Regiment is still short by some seventy men of full strength, and in consequence is in danger of losing its distinctive character. It is known as the Manx Company, but unless its ranks be completely filled from the Island, recruits from other sources will be sought and accepted, and not only will the name vanish, but the privilege which the present members enjoy of wearing the Three Legs of Man in their caps as a distinctive badge will be withdrawn. This would lie a great pity, for while the Island has furnished a goodly number of men for the Army, this particular company is the only special Manx unit in His Majesty's Forces, and from the practical and sentimental points of view an effort to preserve the distinction might be made with very great advantage. So far as it is constituted, the company is composed entirely of Manxmen, and is officered exclusively by Manxmen. Surely the three score and ten or so young natives of this Isle necessary to bring up the company to its full strength will be forthcoming. There must be several Manx youths and men disposed to enlist as soldiers, and these could nut give their patriotism a better turn than by joining the Manx Company. Lieutenants Gell and Kissack, of the company, were in the Island last week on recruiting service, and their efforts met with a fair amount of success,, but it was a great disappointment to them that they had to return to Hoylake, where their company is at present stationed, without being in a position to report to the Commanding Officer that they had obtained the full tale of recruits. Men willing to enter the company may obtain full particulars as to conditions of enlistment from Major Hamilton, the recruiting officer for the Isle of Man, at Parr's Bank Chambers. Douglas. May the Major be inundated with applications within the next few days!

 

[Gunner 87]

33 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

I can't offer up much about The Isle of Man and the significance of 1915 but they did try to bolster up the King's Liverpool, interesting read anyhow.

Dave

 

Isle of Man Examiner, Saturday, April 17, 1915

The Manx Company: Recruits Wanted.

The Company of Isle of Man Volunteers at present attached to the King's Liverpool Regiment is still short by some seventy men of full strength, and in consequence is in danger of losing its distinctive character. It is known as the Manx Company, but unless its ranks be completely filled from the Island, recruits from other sources will be sought and accepted, and not only will the name vanish, but the privilege which the present members enjoy of wearing the Three Legs of Man in their caps as a distinctive badge will be withdrawn. This would lie a great pity, for while the Island has furnished a goodly number of men for the Army, this particular company is the only special Manx unit in His Majesty's Forces, and from the practical and sentimental points of view an effort to preserve the distinction might be made with very great advantage. So far as it is constituted, the company is composed entirely of Manxmen, and is officered exclusively by Manxmen. Surely the three score and ten or so young natives of this Isle necessary to bring up the company to its full strength will be forthcoming. There must be several Manx youths and men disposed to enlist as soldiers, and these could nut give their patriotism a better turn than by joining the Manx Company. Lieutenants Gell and Kissack, of the company, were in the Island last week on recruiting service, and their efforts met with a fair amount of success,, but it was a great disappointment to them that they had to return to Hoylake, where their company is at present stationed, without being in a position to report to the Commanding Officer that they had obtained the full tale of recruits. Men willing to enter the company may obtain full particulars as to conditions of enlistment from Major Hamilton, the recruiting officer for the Isle of Man, at Parr's Bank Chambers. Douglas. May the Major be inundated with applications within the next few days!

 

Thank you Dave. I think we maybe back to the drawing board on this one now ... TM doesn't appear to be a prefix, only T. 

[BillyH]

So what about the SB next to the thistle mentioned in the second post?  Soldiers initials?

BillyH.

[TullochArd]

4 hours ago, BillyH said:

So what about the SB next to the thistle mentioned in the second post?  Soldiers initials?

SB or LB?

[Bob Davies]

On 11/03/2022 at 00:53, Gunner 87 said:

Hello. 

This intriguing trench art lighter was recently won at auction in France. The Manx and Thistle symbols may well suggest a UK link and I am trying to identify the others in an effort to confirm who produced or had the artefact commissioned.

Any opinions very welcome. Gunner 87

There were internment camps on the Isle of Man WW1, so with German/Austrian civilians to guard soldiers, would be needed for that, I presume, though maybe not? The only regiment I can think of with an elephant on their regalia are the Seaforth Highlanders with a collar badge, there are probably more but not in my head today. A very interesting artifact you have there. Regards, Bob. Editing to add a comment about the letter R within the radiator. Is the letter R in German script? Having just been looking at some German writing posted by @Kimberley John LindsayAnother edit here. I have found out that there were soldiers guarding the internment camp on the Isle of Man. They were by all accounts old soldiers, which makes sense. Though that is all I have come up with so far.

Edited 12 March , 2022 by Bob Davies

[Gunner 87]

On 12/03/2022 at 09:39, BillyH said:

So what about the SB next to the thistle mentioned in the second post?  Soldiers initials?

BillyH.

 

On 12/03/2022 at 17:14, Bob Davies said:

There were internment camps on the Isle of Man WW1, so with German/Austrian civilians to guard soldiers, would be needed for that, I presume, though maybe not? The only regiment I can think of with an elephant on their regalia are the Seaforth Highlanders with a collar badge, there are probably more but not in my head today. A very interesting artifact you have there. Regards, Bob. Editing to add a comment about the letter R within the radiator. Is the letter R in German script? Having just been looking at some German writing posted by @Kimberley John LindsayAnother edit here. I have found out that there were soldiers guarding the internment camp on the Isle of Man. They were by all accounts old soldiers, which makes sense. Though that is all I have come up with so far.

Gents, thank you. With no more to go on it is difficult to say whether the initials next to the thistle are SB or LB though I favour the latter, due to the length of the lettering. Bob, very good point about the Seaforth Highlanders collar badge.

Edited 15 March , 2022 by Gunner 87