davidbohl Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March I'd be interested to know what this KLR Sgt is carrying around his waist, also the sleeve insignia ? thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March Physical Training Instructor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 1 hour ago, davidbohl said: I'd be interested to know what this KLR Sgt is carrying around his waist, also the sleeve insignia ? thanks Dave Looks like wire cutters in their carrier. Edited 4 March by GWF1967 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 2 hours ago, RNCVR said: Physical Training Instructor. Not with a crown above Bryan (although that configuration was used as a cap badge by Army Gymnastic Staff), the APTI badge was just plain crossed swords. With a crown suggests a prize badge when worn on the sleeve. “Best swordsman in a regiment of cavalry”. Lower right arm between 1909 and 1926**. **British Army Proficiency Badges page 27. For @davidbohl: is this a rifle styled regiment of the KLR, or had they formally been a Yeomanry unit? The base of the crossed device looks an odd shape for basket hilts of a sword. For @CorporalPunishmentand @Michelle Youngwhat can you see on decent screens? They might be crossed rifles with crown above where the rifles butts are outlined in pale coloured or gilt wire thread in the Rifle Brigade style. If so they would again be a prize badge: “sergeant of the best shooting company”. Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March 18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: is this a rifle styled regiment of the KLR It is Sgt #15287 Sumter Arnold, an american in the Pals 17th KLR, kia 2/7/1916 It was the crown that was throwing me a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March Looks like crossed rifles rather than swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 6 minutes ago, davidbohl said: It is Sgt #15287 Sumter Arnold, an american in the Pals 17th KLR, kia 2/7/1916 It was the crown that was throwing me a bit It’s definitely a prize badge and more likely to be rifles than swords. If confirmed as rifles then “sergeant of best shooting company”. It’s clearly being worn with a cloth backing. Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aim Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March 38 minutes ago, GWF1967 said: Looks like crossed rifles rather than swords. Looks like horse riding whips to me - did anyone have them on their arm badges? aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March 8 minutes ago, aim said: Looks like horse riding whips to me - did anyone have them on their arm badges? aim They were like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aim Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: They were like these. Thanks for the photos - nothing like the badge above, I agree. It was the handle on the "whips" on the O.P.s photo which got me - they don't look like the average WW1 rifle butt to me. aim Edited 4 March by aim Changing WW! to WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March 1 minute ago, aim said: Thanks for the photos - nothing like the badge above, I agree. It was the handle on the "whips" on the O.P.s photo which got me - they don't look like the average WW! rifle butt to me. aim No I agree about the butts, the only type I’ve seen with that outline is a pattern used by the Rifle Brigade and it wasn’t introduced until between the wars either. So it’s a bit of a puzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March We like a challenge don't we, with him being from the good old U.S of A, could it be something he earned over there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 20 minutes ago, davidbohl said: We like a challenge don't we, with him being from the good old U.S of A, could it be something he earned over there? No I don’t think so, the crown and design layout of the badge are all typically British. On balance it seems likely to be a manufacturers variant. Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March Doesn't the way he has his rifle leaning on his thigh look rather like a shooting team photo? Why he should need wire cutters I cannot quite reconcile! Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March He is wearing his KLR cap on the whole photo, sorry I can't reproduce it as i haven't had permission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 16 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Doesn't the way he has his rifle leaning on his thigh look rather like a shooting team photo? Why he should need wire cutters I cannot quite reconcile! Charlie Platoon sergeant quite often had wire cutters if about to make a trench raid, or a pre planned assault. Leaning the rifle like that was (and remained) quite common for any seated photo where arms were in hand. Not quite so much since the contemporary short rifle was introduced, although it can still be seen. I think that official MOD pictures taken before soldiers go on operations still show that stance. Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March 2 hours ago, aim said: Looks like horse riding whips to me - did anyone have them on their arm badges? aim Not unlike an Aussie version (best driver in a field battery) but upside down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 3 minutes ago, PhilB said: Not unlike an Aussie version (best driver in a field battery) but upside down! Yes that’s why I’d ruled it out of the possibilities really. The curvature of the crossed whips was generally at the top like that. Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March Still looking for a lead, in this cutting from pre-war the Liverpool Territorials had a shooting competition in which it talks of prizes and woven pattern designs From the BNA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March 6 minutes ago, davidbohl said: Still looking for a lead, in this cutting from pre-war the Liverpool Territorials had a shooting competition in which it talks of prizes and woven pattern designs From the BNA A special regimental pattern of a common design seems very likely. I wonder if any badges have survived at the King’s regimental museum. There are two SMEs concerning King’s insignia and one, Julian Bowsher, is a member here. I’m sure he will know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_C Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March 6 hours ago, davidbohl said: It is Sgt #15287 Sumter Arnold, an american in the Pals 17th KLR, kia 2/7/1916 It was the crown that was throwing me a bit The group photograph appears on page 63 of ‘Liverpool Pals’ by Graham Maddocks. It is captioned ‘Some of the 17th Battalion at Larkhill’ and goes on to identify all 9 NCO’s and a 2nd L/t in the photograph by name. It identifies the subject of the OP as ‘Sgt Andler’ not ‘Sumter Arnold’. Unless a typo, I’d be inclined to go with ‘Andler’ on the basis that the author was able to identify the rest of the group - I imagine the names were written on the back of the postcard. Also, at least one other NCO wears the same badge, but on his left sleeve. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 12 hours ago, Pete_C said: The group photograph appears on page 63 of ‘Liverpool Pals’ by Graham Maddocks. It is captioned ‘Some of the 17th Battalion at Larkhill’ and goes on to identify all 9 NCO’s and a 2nd L/t in the photograph by name. It identifies the subject of the OP as ‘Sgt Andler’ not ‘Sumter Arnold’. Unless a typo, I’d be inclined to go with ‘Andler’ on the basis that the author was able to identify the rest of the group - I imagine the names were written on the back of the postcard. Also, at least one other NCO wears the same badge, but on his left sleeve. Pete I think that’s further evidence of a special regimental badge scheme. The King’s (Liverpool) Regiment had form for doing this and there’s another thread relating to the Liverpool Scottish that shows a special (metal) battalion arm badge for bombers. In general the musketry badge badge on the right arm was for sergeants of the best shooting company (training and supervising) and on the left arm for those who actually earned the skill-at-arms award on an individual basis. Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March 1 hour ago, Pete_C said: It identifies the subject of the OP as ‘Sgt Andler’ not ‘Sumter Arnold’ I've tracked his American census 1900, he is Sumter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 9 minutes ago, davidbohl said: I've tracked his American census 1900, he is Sumter Well it’s certainly a good American Christian name. I wonder if he was named after Fort Sumter, South Carolina. Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March It's a real intriguing story for me, his father who was then a Reverend, was born in Germany He must have been heartbroken to see his son run off to war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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