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Remembered Today:

Sgt's sleeve insignia and equipment


davidbohl
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I'd be interested to know what this KLR Sgt is carrying around his waist,  also the sleeve insignia ?

thanks

Dave

 

 

ArnoldS_KLRSgt.jpg

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Physical Training Instructor.

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1 hour ago, davidbohl said:

I'd be interested to know what this KLR Sgt is carrying around his waist,  also the sleeve insignia ?

thanks

Dave

 

 

ArnoldS_KLRSgt.jpg

Looks like wire cutters in their carrier. 

C496C91F-CE24-4F57-960D-0924C3698D47.jpeg

Edited by GWF1967
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2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Physical Training Instructor.

Not with a crown above Bryan (although that configuration was used as a cap badge by Army Gymnastic Staff), the APTI badge was just plain crossed swords.  With a crown suggests a prize badge when worn on the sleeve.  “Best swordsman in a regiment of cavalry”.  Lower right arm between 1909 and 1926**.

**British Army Proficiency Badges page 27.

For @davidbohl:  is this a rifle styled regiment of the KLR, or had they formally been a Yeomanry unit?  The base of the crossed device looks an odd shape for basket hilts of a sword.  For @CorporalPunishmentand @Michelle Youngwhat can you see on decent screens?  They might be crossed rifles with crown above where the rifles butts are outlined in pale coloured or gilt wire thread in the Rifle Brigade style.  If so they would again be a prize badge: “sergeant of the best shooting company”.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

is this a rifle styled regiment of the KLR

It is Sgt #15287 Sumter Arnold,  an american in the Pals 17th KLR,  kia 2/7/1916

It was the crown that was throwing me a bit 

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Looks like crossed rifles rather than swords.

ArnoldS_KLRSgt.jpg.608d99fd68f17fa5bd9c98075e07f810 (2).jpg

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6 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

It is Sgt #15287 Sumter Arnold,  an american in the Pals 17th KLR,  kia 2/7/1916

It was the crown that was throwing me a bit 

It’s definitely a prize badge and more likely to be rifles than swords. If confirmed as rifles then “sergeant of best shooting company”.  It’s clearly being worn with a cloth backing.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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38 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Looks like crossed rifles rather than swords.

ArnoldS_KLRSgt.jpg.608d99fd68f17fa5bd9c98075e07f810 (2).jpg

Looks like horse riding whips to me - did anyone have them on their arm badges?

aim

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8 minutes ago, aim said:

Looks like horse riding whips to me - did anyone have them on their arm badges?

aim

They were like these.

1D092997-F16D-4A8F-8C7D-E719FEAC1F01.jpeg

9DF7AAC9-662B-49D1-AA8C-4E9DD56B460C.jpeg

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2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

They were like these.

1D092997-F16D-4A8F-8C7D-E719FEAC1F01.jpeg

9DF7AAC9-662B-49D1-AA8C-4E9DD56B460C.jpeg

Thanks for the photos - nothing like the badge above, I agree. It was the handle on the "whips" on the O.P.s photo which got me - they don't look like the average WW1 rifle butt to me.

aim

Edited by aim
Changing WW! to WW1.
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1 minute ago, aim said:

Thanks for the photos - nothing like the badge above, I agree. It was the handle on the "whips" on the O.P.s photo which got me - they don't look like the average WW! rifle butt to me.

aim

No I agree about the butts, the only type I’ve seen with that outline is a pattern used by the Rifle Brigade and it wasn’t introduced until between the wars either.  So it’s a bit of a puzzle.

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We like a challenge don't we, with him being from the good old U.S of A, could it be something he earned over there?

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20 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

We like a challenge don't we, with him being from the good old U.S of A, could it be something he earned over there?

No I don’t think so, the crown and design layout of the badge are all typically British.  On balance it seems likely to be a manufacturers variant.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Doesn't the way he has his rifle leaning on his thigh look rather like a shooting team photo? Why he should need wire cutters I cannot quite reconcile!

Charlie

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He is wearing his KLR cap on the whole photo, sorry I can't reproduce it as i haven't had permission

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16 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Doesn't the way he has his rifle leaning on his thigh look rather like a shooting team photo? Why he should need wire cutters I cannot quite reconcile!

Charlie

Platoon sergeant quite often had wire cutters if about to make a trench raid, or a pre planned assault.  Leaning the rifle like that was (and remained) quite common for any seated photo where arms were in hand.   Not quite so much since the contemporary short rifle was introduced, although it can still be seen.  I think that official MOD pictures taken before soldiers go on operations still show that stance.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 hours ago, aim said:

Looks like horse riding whips to me - did anyone have them on their arm badges?

aim

Not unlike an Aussie version (best driver in a field battery) but upside down!

image.jpeg.204d1a294ac2cf5c253ce8a9982c03b0.jpeg

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3 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Not unlike an Aussie version (best driver in a field battery) but upside down!

image.jpeg.204d1a294ac2cf5c253ce8a9982c03b0.jpeg

Yes that’s why I’d ruled it out of the possibilities really.  The curvature of the crossed whips was generally at the top like that.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Still looking for a lead, in this cutting from pre-war the Liverpool Territorials had a shooting competition in which it talks of prizes and woven pattern designs

From the BNA

845856840_Screenshot2022-03-0419_07_50.png.ea1b03bcdd944287c21f73ef98b384d1.png

 

 

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6 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

Still looking for a lead, in this cutting from pre-war the Liverpool Territorials had a shooting competition in which it talks of prizes and woven pattern designs

From the BNA

845856840_Screenshot2022-03-0419_07_50.png.ea1b03bcdd944287c21f73ef98b384d1.png

 

 

A special regimental pattern of a common design seems very likely.  I wonder if any badges have survived at the King’s regimental museum.  There are two SMEs concerning King’s insignia and one, Julian Bowsher, is a member here.  I’m sure he will know the answer.  

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6 hours ago, davidbohl said:

It is Sgt #15287 Sumter Arnold,  an american in the Pals 17th KLR,  kia 2/7/1916

It was the crown that was throwing me a bit 

The group photograph appears on page 63 of ‘Liverpool Pals’ by Graham Maddocks. It is captioned ‘Some of the 17th Battalion at Larkhill’ and goes on to identify all 9 NCO’s and a 2nd L/t in the photograph by name. It identifies the subject of the OP as ‘Sgt Andler’ not ‘Sumter Arnold’. Unless a typo, I’d be inclined to go with ‘Andler’ on the basis that the author was able to identify the rest of the group - I imagine the names were written on the back of the postcard.

Also, at least one other NCO wears the same badge, but on his left sleeve.

Pete

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12 hours ago, Pete_C said:

The group photograph appears on page 63 of ‘Liverpool Pals’ by Graham Maddocks. It is captioned ‘Some of the 17th Battalion at Larkhill’ and goes on to identify all 9 NCO’s and a 2nd L/t in the photograph by name. It identifies the subject of the OP as ‘Sgt Andler’ not ‘Sumter Arnold’. Unless a typo, I’d be inclined to go with ‘Andler’ on the basis that the author was able to identify the rest of the group - I imagine the names were written on the back of the postcard.

Also, at least one other NCO wears the same badge, but on his left sleeve.

Pete

I think that’s further evidence of a special regimental badge scheme.  The King’s (Liverpool) Regiment had form for doing this and there’s another thread relating to the Liverpool Scottish that shows a special (metal) battalion arm badge for bombers.  In general the musketry badge badge on the right arm was for sergeants of the best shooting company (training and supervising) and on the left arm for those who actually earned the skill-at-arms award on an individual basis.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 hour ago, Pete_C said:

It identifies the subject of the OP as ‘Sgt Andler’ not ‘Sumter Arnold’

I've tracked his American census 1900, he is Sumter

ArnoldS_Census1900.png.b96f1f630b8f16b7291854d67375f18c.png

 

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9 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

I've tracked his American census 1900, he is Sumter

ArnoldS_Census1900.png.b96f1f630b8f16b7291854d67375f18c.png

 

Well it’s certainly a good American Christian name.  I wonder if he was named after Fort Sumter, South Carolina. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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It's a real intriguing story for me, his father who was then a Reverend, was born in Germany

He must have been heartbroken to see his son run off to war

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