Information and background on Private Herbert John Butler, Service No. 260001, Royal Warwickshire Regt.

[Top notch]

I am trying to find background information on Private Herbert John Butler, Service No. 260001 6th Batt. Royal Warwickshre Regiment.

Private Butler died on 27th August 1917, aged 18. He was born on 14th May 1899.

I believe he first served with the Cambridgeshire Regiment with Service No. 330759?

I have searched Ancestry and found his Medal Index Cards, Soldiers Died Great War, etc. and found him on the C.W.G.C. site,

Other than that I have very little on him and can only make "educated!!" guesses as to his background and service.

What I would like to know, if anyone can help, is...........

Did he volunteer for the Cambridgeshire Regt. or was he conscripted and at what date, as his age at death, in 1918, was only 18?

When did he transfer to the Royal Warwickshire and would that have been in France/Flanders?

Where were the 6th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment fighting on the date of his death, 27th August 1917.

Where can I find the 6th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment War Diary for that period?

Any help at all would be gratefully received.

Thanks, Eddie.

[Matlock1418]

CWGC have him as 1st/6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1627724/herbert-john-butler

1/6 RWR War Diary 01 March 1915 - 31 October 1917 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354608 Currently free to download after free registration with the National Archives

M

[PRC]

No obvious surviving service records. Medal Index Card only shows his Royal Warwickshire Service number and that he qualified for the British War Medal and Victory Medal, so did not serve in a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916.

His age is a bit of problem - under the Military Services Act he shouldn't have been called up until the three months period after his 18th birthday and only gone out to a Theatre of War until he was 19. A near number search might turn up more details, but I suspect he went out as part of a general draft from the Cambridgeshire Regiment, (an all Territorial Force unit), got to an Infantry Base Depot on the coast of France and from there was redirected to the 6th Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the 6th being a Territorial Force unit.

As both the Cambridgeshire Regiment and the 6th Battalion Royal Warwicks were Territorial Force units there may be something to be gleaned by looking at the Territorial Force renumbering at the start of 1917. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

The Cambridge Regiment service number 330759 came from the number blocks allocated to the 1st Battalions of that Regiment, so shows he was with them at the start of 1917, most likely before his 18th birthday. That could have been the 2/1st at Marton Hall, Middlesborough, the 1st Reserve, (3/1st) at Halton Park, or the 4/1st at Harrogate. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cambridgeshire-regiment/

After the initial renumbering the allocated number blocks tended to get used up more generally - 260001 for example did come from the number block allocated to the 6th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, (240001 to 265000), but he was not very likely to have been the 20,000 person to serve with that battalion.

Both his Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC) webpage and his entry on Soldiers Died in the Great War, (SDGW) shows him as serving with the 1/6th Battalion so I'll assume that is correct - the 2/6th were also in France by the time of Herberts' death.

The relevant war diary can be found in the National Archive catalogue here:- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354608

You do need to sign in with your account to get it for free, but if you don't have one even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" and follow the instruction. No financial details are requested.

A very quick check of CWGC and SDGW bring up the following for nearby Royal Warwickshire service numbers:-

260003 Maurice James Moore killed in action with the 1/6th Battalion 27th August 1917 formerly 9862 Cambridgeshire Regiment
260010 William Dunkerley killed in action with the 2/6th Battalion 04/12/17 formerly 31660 Lancashire Fusiliers.
260012 Robert Wood killed in action with the 2/6th Battalion 04/12/17 formerly 32848 Lancashire Fusiliers and 291174 Monmouthshire Regiment.

So may have been a depot clear out.

Hope that gets you started,
Peter

 

[Matlock1418]

I also note from CWGC: "Son of Mrs. Maria Butler, of 104, King's Avenue, Watford, Herts."

Might therefore be worth looking for a local newspaper report/entry in that area [asuming his mother hadn't moved very far after his death/by the time I/CWGC were communicating with her]

M

[Matlock1418]

Again from CWGC he is commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial so one would presume he was considered 'missing' for a while before being presumed dead.

From that initial presumption of being 'missing' it is possible to see that there was a PoW enquiry, as 1/6th RWR, via the ICRC https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/378442/3/2 = provides a fuller name of Herbert John Mansell BUTLER - taking a punt the Mansell might perhaps be his mother's maiden name ??

It also shows his birth given as 3/11/1897 - this may perhaps be the date he gave to the Army on his enlistment [as it would make him older than he apparently was] ??

Unfortunately we can see "Negatif envoye" [a negative reply] to the Dutch Red Cross at the Hague.

M

Edited 24 February , 2022 by Matlock1418

[kenf48]

Soldiers' Effects on Ancestry shows a gratuity of £3 paid to his mother sole legatee.  This amount indicates he had less than 12 months service when killed.

As noted above National Registration in 1915 prior to the introduction of conscription in 1916 meant the number enlisting under age fell significantly.  Under the terms of the Military Service Act men normally resident in the UK aged 18 to 41 were' deemed to have enlisted'.  Younger men born in 1899 could enlist voluntarily for home service (e.g.TF) or enlist as a regular soldier.  In any event the attached notice appeared in newspapers on or around 28 September 1916.

Middlesex Gazette 28 September 1916 BNA

(obviously insert local recruiting office)

In September 1916 the Training Reserve was formed. Pte Butler was posted to the Cambridgeshire Regiment. 

330775 Fowler was an older, Derby Scheme recruit from Essex posted to the 1st Cambridgeshire Regiment on the 9th January 1917 and 1/1 on 25th March he was posted to the London Regiment in France; 330782 Mead (also Essex) posted to the Cambridgeshire Regiment  8 January so it does seem the Cambs. Regiment was adopting the six digit numbering from January 1917.  330786 Ripper was 18 years and eight months when mobilised to 1st Cambs on 8 January 1917.

Pte Butler was in a draft posted to the BEF on the 13th June 1917 he would have gone to the TF Infantry Base Depot at Rouen and from there was posted to the 1/6th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment on the 5th July 1917.  The war diary shows a reinforcement draft of 232 men received on the 8th July 1917.  

Earlier in the war, in February 1915 the TF had to be reminded by the War Office that 19 was the age for active service overseas.  It does appear at some point a year was added to Pte.  Butler's age, June 1917 was the month after his 18th birthday.  It does, look on the balance of probability,  Pte Butler was conscripted and mobilised as in the proclamation above and joined the Army January 1917 and was posted to the 1st Cambridgeshire Regiment.

Soldier's effects states 'kia Belgium' there is then another note D o W (died of wounds) which usually means he made it to a medical facility but as you have seen he has no known grave.  His time at the Front was very brief, the Battalion was out of the line training until the 16th August. Pte Butler was among the 25 other ranks killed; 120 wounded, or the 14 missing  in the failed attack at Winnipeg Farm.   

War diary on Ancestry here if you subscribe

 

[PRC]

There are actually three ICRC cards on that link, and one indicates there was an enquiry from his father, Lieutenant H. Butler, R.N.V.R., who was interned in Holland.

However I couldn't obviously spot a card for the father. There is a Sub-Lieutenant Harry Butler with R.N.V.R. records, who looks like he was interned in Holland from early October 1914. Contact appears to be a Mrs Butler of 104 Kings Avenue, Watford. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8642831

The occupants of 104 Kings Avenue on the 1911 Census of England & Wales was the Sellman family, so the Butler's moved there after that.

3 hours ago, Top notch said:

He was born on 14th May 1899.

If he was born in England & Wales, (SDGW says he was born Stratford, London), then the birth should legally have been registered in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1899. You had 42 days after the event to register the birth and not pay a fine \ face criminal conviction. I can't see that stretching into Q3. But there is no Herbert John Butler registered in England & Wales in that quarter, And there is no Herbert John Mansell Butler \ Herbert John M. Butler full stop. Q2 1899 does not bring up any Herbert John Mansell either.

A high level check of the 1921 Census of England & Wales brings up just one Maria Butler living in the Watford area - she was born circa 1868 on Guernsey. Going back to the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 41 year old Maria Butler, born Guernsey, who was recorded living at 51 Cross Street, Portsmouth. She was living there with her husband of one year, the 29 year old Harry Butler, a Royal Navy man from Barking, Essex. The marriage has produced no children so far. However there are four children in the household,  including two of Harry Butlers' step-children, Herbert Mansell, (aged 12, born Bow, London) and Joan Mansell, (aged 9, born Guernsey). There is also a niece and a nephew in the household, also with the surname Mansell. The marriage of a Harry Butler to a Maria Mansell was recorded in the Portsmouth District in Q1 1910.

Drew a blank with the 1901 Census of England & Wales for Maria and Herbert Mansell.

Cheers,
Peter

[Top notch]

Dear Matlock. Peter and Kern,

Thank you all for your replies. I will reply at more length this evening.

Eddie.

[clk]

Hi Eddie,

23 hours ago, kenf48 said:

his mother sole legatee

The associated 'Will' is available for a modest fee from here.

It will probably tell you very little though, and would come as a low resolution B&W scan of the original.

Regards
Chris

Edited 25 February , 2022 by clk

[kenf48]

On 24/02/2022 at 13:00, PRC said:

And there is no Herbert John Mansell Butler \ Herbert John M. Butler full stop. Q2 1899 does not bring up any Herbert John Mansell either.

There is a Herbert Mansell in the Admission Registers of Wandsworth School born 2. 7. 98  I discounted him. He was living at 5 Roskell Road Putney (current house prices in excess of £1m - gulp) shown as leaving 05 reason given Deodar Road which is the other side of Putney High Street ( even more expensive. - its bonkers I started in Putney in 1967 couldn't give them away then!)

Someone may care to follow it up. I only mention it as the d.o.b. is spot on for France at 19.

[Top notch]

Hi Matlock, Peter, Ken and Chris.

Sorry my response is later than anticipated. I thought that retirement meant one could choose what and when one did things, it appears grandchildren put pay to that?

However, thank you all for your assistance with background on Private Herbert John Butler. 

I am able to add a few things of interest, especially as to his birth name, etc.

Thanks to you gentlemen, I am satisfied that he did enter service in France, with 1/6th Warwicks, the reference to the near service number of Maurice James Moore 1/6th Warwicks, killed the same day as Herbert? (Where were 2/6th Warwicks that day, does anybody know?)

As to whether he was KIA or DOW, as suggested. CWGC have him as presumed missing and he is listed on the Tyne Cot memorial. "Soldiers Effects" has a note "DOW". Indicating he could have received treatment prior to his death. If he had reached a CCS and then died, he would, surely have been registered and had a grave? Perhaps he was wounded, in the action of 27th. August and got to an Aid Post and died, received a quick "frontline" burial but the grave was later lost or destroyed in further fighting? (Any ideas where I might find out?). Was the attack, on Winnipeg Farm, when he died, part of "3rd Ypres" and where was Winnipeg Farm located?

He obviously did not give a true birth date, so did he volunteer for the Training Reserve in the UK? In which case he could have "fibbed" about his age? Or, if he had been Conscripted, wouldn't his birth certificate have been required?

The most intriguing part of this mystery may have been answered by Matlock and Peter? The name given by the POW enquiry to Herbert John Mansell Butler and his "father" Lt. Harry Butler RNVR. On the 1911 census (as found by Peter) there is Harry Butler, wife Maria Butler and then child, Herbert Mansell!!, age 12. Could this be my Herbert John Butler, who was born to Maria Mansell in 1899? Had she been married previously to a "Mansell", or was she unmarried when she had Herbert? Did Herbert adopt his step father's name of Butler when he joined up?

This is the exciting bit, I have attached two photos one shows the young Herbert John Butler (his name is written on the back) clearly with a Cambridge cap badge (any ideas what the badge on the left sleeve is?). The other picture is the reverse of Herbert John Butler's Memorial Plaque, please note the inscription around the outside ref. Mansell!!

Any more help on this would be much appreciated. Are there likely to be any other records I have missed pertaining to this man?

In the meantime, thank you all for your assistance.

Eddie.

 

[ss002d6252]

42 minutes ago, Top notch said:

As to whether he was KIA or DOW, as suggested. CWGC have him as presumed missing and he is listed on the Tyne Cot memorial. "Soldiers Effects" has a note "DOW". Indicating he could have received treatment prior to his death. If he had reached a CCS and then died, he would, surely have been registered and had a grave? Perhaps he was wounded, in the action of 27th. August and got to an Aid Post and died, received a quick "frontline" burial but the grave was later lost or destroyed in further fighting? (Any ideas where I might find out?). Was the attack, on Winnipeg Farm, when he died, part of "3rd Ypres" and where was Winnipeg Farm located?

Yes, many graves were lost to later action. The chance of being able to prove this though is very low without any service records.

Craig

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Top notch said:

Was the attack, on Winnipeg Farm, when he died, part of "3rd Ypres" and where was Winnipeg Farm located?

Yes a minor action in the Battle of  Third Ypres.  Battles were named by the Battle Nomenclature Committee post war, the action at Winnipeg Farm did not get a mention There is a full account of the battle on Wikipedia as a starting point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Passchendaele 

you will note on 27 August bad weather halted attacks

 

Earlier you were advised to download the war diary which gives an exact map reference for the action, it also makes reference to the appalling weather and state of the ground as well as intense machine gunfire.

The map reference given in the war diary is  C 12d 80 and D7 a 28  

This is the St Julien Map as usual s**'s law puts the bit we're interested in right on the edge but the Cemetery referred to in the diary can be clearly seen

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A66691/-/collection

How to read a trench map

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/

one of our mapping experts @WhiteStarLine will put you right.

2 hours ago, Top notch said:

He obviously did not give a true birth date, so did he volunteer for the Training Reserve in the UK? In which case he could have "fibbed" about his age? Or, if he had been Conscripted, wouldn't his birth certificate have been required?

Nothing Great War  is ever obvious.  He does not appear to have joined the TR but was posted to a Home Service TF Battalion of the Cambridgeshire Regiment indicating his age may have been given correctly. He was not required to produce a birth certificated on enlistment the age given on enlistment was his "Army Age' and the Army was very loathe to amend it as numerous examples show.

 

2 hours ago, Top notch said:

(any ideas what the badge on the left sleeve is?)

a better scan might help but @FROGSMILE will tell you young soldiers in training/home service were often given further training in skill at arms before being committed to war.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

Yes a minor action in the Battle of  Third Ypres.  Battles were named by the Battle Nomenclature Committee post war, the action at Winnipeg Farm did not get a mention There is a full account of the battle on Wikipedia as a starting point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Passchendaele 

you will note on 27 August bad weather halted attacks

 

Earlier you were advised to download the war diary which gives an exact map reference for the action, it also makes reference to the appalling weather and state of the ground as well as intense machine gunfire.

The map reference given in the war diary is  C 12d 80 and D7 a 28  

This is the St Julien Map as usual s**'s law puts the bit we're interested in right on the edge but the Cemetery referred to in the diary can be clearly seen

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A66691/-/collection

How to read a trench map

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/

one of our mapping experts @WhiteStarLine will put you right.

Nothing Great War  is ever obvious.  He does not appear to have joined the TR but was posted to a Home Service TF Battalion of the Cambridgeshire Regiment indicating his age may have been given correctly. He was not required to produce a birth certificated on enlistment the age given on enlistment was his "Army Age' and the Army was very loathe to amend it as numerous examples show.

 

a better scan might help but @FROGSMILE will tell you young soldiers in training/home service were often given further training in skill at arms before being committed to war.

Yes that was especially the case with hand grenade training, use of the bayonet in close quarters battle (as part of physical ‘hardening’) and, for selected men, the Lewis Gun.  In this case I think that the badge is the two-part version badge of proficiency for the latter.

Edited 27 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 24/02/2022 at 12:58, kenf48 said:

Pte Butler was among the 25 other ranks killed; 120 wounded, or the 14 missing  in the failed attack at Winnipeg Farm.   

@Top notch

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website, (CWGC) shows 53 men of the 6th Battalions of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment as having died on the 27th August 1917. While there are 2 shown as iust 6th Battalion and one shown (in error) as 5/6th, further investigation indicates all 53 to have been serving with the 1/6th.

All bar 13 are remembered on the Tyne Cot Memorial. Those 13 were recoverd post-war from battlefield locations and unmarked graves. Plotting where there bodies were found may give a picture of where the attack broke down and also likely locations where bodies if buried in marked graves might subsequently have been lost when grave markers were destroyed.

Private 260092 Charles Comyns was recovered from a battlefield grave at Sheet 28 N.E. 7.c.60.30. in early 1921. Other Unknown British Soldiers recovered from the nearby area at the same time were removed to Tyne Cot Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/462348/

Private 268576 Horace Cummins was recovered from an unmarked location, Sheet 28 D.7.c.50.40 , in early 1921 and was identified from a postcard found on the body, initially as Cummings. He too was moved to Tyne Cot Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/462450/

Private 242168 Harry Bertram Green was recovered from the battlefield in August 1920, his body being found at Sheet 28 N.W. C.12.d.2.3. and identified from his disc. He is now buried at Poelcappelle Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/491559/

Sergeant 240082 W E Griffiths was found on the battlefield in March 1920  at Sheet 28 C.12.d.2.3 along with a least one unknown Royal Warwickshire man – there may have been more on the previous page of the Concentration Report. Sergeant Griffiths was identified from his two discs and a locket. He is now buried at New Irish Farm Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/452413/

Private 29201 Charles Edward Higman was recovered at the same time as Harry Green, although his body was found at Sheet 28 C.12.d.3.4. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/491632/

Sergeant 242128 R.H. Lane was found at the same time and in the same small area as Sergeant W.E. Griffiths and appears on the previous page of the Concentration Report, along with another unknown soldier of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. Both were moved to the New Irish Farm Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/452623/

Private 29204 A.E. Lewis, initially only known as “Private 209204 1/6 Warwicks” was recovered from the battlefield in September 1919. He was found at Sheet 28. D.13.a.20.70, the same area turning up a number of unknown British Soldiers. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/463593/
An enquiry from family to the International Committee of the Red Cross shows the family had been told his status was Wounded and Missing.

Private 242829 G. Neville was recovered from the battlefield at much the same time as Private Lewis, being found at Sheet 28 D.13.a.10.45. He was moved to the Tyne Cot Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/464089/

Private 242560 W J. Parkyn was another September 1919 battlefield recovery, being found at Sheet 28 D.13.a.15.20. The same page of the concentration report shows at least one Unknown British Soldier being recoved from the same small area. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/464215/

Private 240720 F. Pinckston was recovered from the battlefield in August 1920, his disc have his earlier TF service number of 2987. He was found at Sheet N.W. 28 C.12.d.4.3, the same location that would turn up Privates Green and Higman. He now rests like them in Poelcappelle British Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/491977/

Private 266626 H. Probert was found on the battlefield in September 1919 and identified from his number on the Breech Cover of his rifle. He was found at Sheet 28 N.E. D.13.a.50.75.and was moved to Tyne Cot Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/464337/

Serjeant 240206 H. Sale was found in 1925, initially identified only as an Unknown British Sergeant of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. along with three other Unknown British Soldiers and a Soldier of the 10th Londons. He was found at Sheet 28 C.12.c.6.2 https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/480894/

Corporal 330138 G.H. Smith was found on the Battlefield in September 1919 and was initially thought to be with the 16th Battalion. His correct unit was subsequently identifed with the help of his disc. He was found at Sheet 28 N.E. D.7.b.60.80, the same small area also giving up two Unknown British Soldiers and an Unknown Worcester. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/464672/

8 hours ago, Top notch said:

As to whether he was KIA or DOW, as suggested. CWGC have him as presumed missing and he is listed on the Tyne Cot memorial. "Soldiers Effects" has a note "DOW". Indicating he could have received treatment prior to his death. If he had reached a CCS and then died, he would, surely have been registered and had a grave? Perhaps he was wounded, in the action of 27th. August and got to an Aid Post and died, received a quick "frontline" burial but the grave was later lost or destroyed in further fighting?

While a grave being lost is the most likely scenario, it should also be considered that when the company reports first came in to the adjutant after the attack, the last thing anyone saw of Herbert was that he was wounded, possibly mortally, and unable to carry on. When the Warwicks fell back through the area where he was last seen, he was no longer there. The assumption was that either Battalion stretcher bearers or men from other units had picked him up and that he was somewhere in the casualty evacuation process. At that stage his status might well be recorded just as wounded. However as the reports started coming in from Field Ambulances and Casualty Clearing Stations, as well as the M.O's of neighbouring unit and Herbert Butlers' name wasn't on them, his status was probably updated to Wounded and Missing.

When no information about his capture was forthcoming a decision would be taken , usually after about six months unless anything else came to light, that he was dead, most likely died of wounds.

His entry on the Register of Soldiers Effects will show when the balance of his pay was sent out - in this case to his legatee. The legatee would not have got sign off on probate unless the Army deemed he was dead, and by the same logic the Army would not have paid out any money owing until after that decision was taken.

Could be many reasons for a lengthy delay between his death and paying out monies due, but still worth a check. A relatively short period might tend to indicate his death in an allied medical facility was known about at the time. May also be worthwhile checking out casualty lists.

Cheers,
Peter

[Top notch]

Hello Ken and Frogsmile, Thanks for the help sorting out my queries, especially on the badge.  And, Peter, thanks for the detailed response on casualties. My Granfather re-enlisted in 1919 with a Labour Company and spent 10 months in Flanders, exhuming bodies on the former battlefields. It was rumoured within my family that spending so long on this onerous task was one of the causes of his later alcoholism?

Eddie