Major w c french 3rd Ghurkas kia Neuve Chapelle what regt was he in in 1907

[arantxa]

Fantastic thanks 

[6RRF]

2 hours ago, arantxa said:

Sorry are you saying it’s the same man 

I'll leave that to others better qualified than me, but the officer in the non-blurred photie is clearly a Fusilier

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Suffolks I believe - certainly the company of the Territorial Force based at the Eye Drill Hall post 1908 was Suffolk Regiment. It would be the most natural fit as that is the county the town is in.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes that’s what I thought in the first place, as you know, but I thought that Charlie must have had some inside information that I did not when he declared Norfolk’s.  It also explains why I could not find any Norfolks VB with a cross shaped helmet plate, all three were stars.  I believe that the photo showed Woolnough to be with the 1st VB that were formerly East Suffolk Rifle Volunteers (officers badge in white metal, ORs in black).  See also:  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/285213-identification-of-emblem/

 

Edited 18 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

23 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

thought that Charlie must have had some inside information

Oops!

[PRC]

The occupants of "Stayer" House, Eye, on the 1911 Census of England & Wales is the family of a James Sutherland Wilkins, a 59 year old widower and Retired Colonel Indian Medical Service, born Madras. Stayer House is now a Grade II listed building. https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101316595-stayer-house-eye#.YhAVFNKnypp

Living with him is his unmarried sister in-law, Annie Cecilia FRENCH, born Suffolk, his son James French Wilkins, aged 4, born Suffolk, plus three live in servants and a visitor.

James French Wilkins would be far too young in the Great War period to be the Officer Cadet. And the only previous appearance of his father that I could spot was as a 19 year old Medical lodging in London on the 1871 Census.

And for the officer cadet there are no Wilkins recorded on either the civic or church memorial in Eye. If he was a son of Frank Sutherland Wilkins then likely he was born in India or Burma.

But then something kept nagging away at the back of my head that these names were all too familiar. Apparently it’s time  I was wheeled into a nursing home and had a tartan blanket put over me as a google search turns up that I researched the life story of Colonel Wilkins and incidentally William French and Dora French – wife of the former and sister of the latter -  about 6 years ago after I noticed this headstone in Eye cemetery.

Click on the picture to see the whole story.

                In
       Loving Memory
               Of
Col. J.S WILKINS I.M.S. D.S.O
   of Stayer House, Eye
Died Oct.27th 1916 Aged 65

“Then are they glad, because they are at rest”

Dora French, by then in her mid-thirties, only married James Sutherland Wilkins in 1905 and died at or shortly after giving birth to James French Wilkins – both events happened on the 16th September 1906.

I did not come across any records of Colonel Wilkins being married previously, but it remains a possibility, in which case F S Wilkins could be his son. I suspect it’s more likely he is a nephew.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, PRC said:

The occupants of "Stayer" House, Eye, on the 1911 Census of England & Wales is the family of a James Sutherland Wilkins, a 59 year old widower and Retired Colonel Indian Medical Service, born Madras. Stayer House is now a Grade II listed building. https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101316595-stayer-house-eye#.YhAVFNKnypp

Living with him is his unmarried sister in-law, Annie Cecilia FRENCH, born Suffolk, his son James French Wilkins, aged 4, born Suffolk, plus three live in servants and a visitor.

James French Wilkins would be far too young in the Great War period to be the Officer Cadet. And the only previous appearance of his father that I could spot was as a 19 year old Medical lodging in London on the 1871 Census.

And for the officer cadet there are no Wilkins recorded on either the civic or church memorial in Eye. If he was a son of Frank Sutherland Wilkins then likely he was born in India or Burma.

But then something kept nagging away at the back of my head that these names were all too familiar. Apparently it’s time  I was wheeled into a nursing home and had a tartan blanket put over me as a google search turns up that I researched the life story of Colonel Wilkins and incidentally William French and Dora French – wife of the former and sister of the latter -  about 6 years ago after I noticed this headstone in Eye cemetery.

Click on the picture to see the whole story.

                In
       Loving Memory
               Of
Col. J.S WILKINS I.M.S. D.S.O
   of Stayer House, Eye
Died Oct.27th 1916 Aged 65

“Then are they glad, because they are at rest”

Dora French, by then in her mid-thirties, only married James Sutherland Wilkins in 1905 and died at or shortly after giving birth to James French Wilkins – both events happened on the 16th September 1906.

I did not come across any records of Colonel Wilkins being married previously, but it remains a possibility, in which case F S Wilkins could be his son. I suspect it’s more likely he is a nephew.

Cheers,
Peter

Brilliant stuff Peter, it’s like an enormous jigsaw puzzle, and you are certainly the puzzle master.  Very impressive indeed.

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, arantxa said:

Sorry are you saying it’s the same man 

Just to confirm, they do definitely appear to be the same man.  The full dress uniforms of the Lancashire Fusiliers and 3rd Gurkha Rifles are unmistakable and the apparent closeness in time between the two portraits suggests that service with the former regiment was as a subaltern, and that he then transferred to the Indian Army to gain his captaincy.  At that time an officer didn’t transfer directly into a regiment in the Indian Army, as he would in the British Army, but instead joined the list of the Indian Staff Corps, that had recently coalesced from what had previously been a separate staff corps list for each of the Presidencies.  From the staff corps he was then posted to a regiment by mutual agreement.  Only officers of proven competence  were accepted and at least one native language had to become fluent.  An officer generally remained on probation until he passed the colloquial language test, and most officers secured the services of a Munshi (teacher) to cram them for the examination.

Edited 19 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, PRC said:

Would seem potentially a good match for Private Noel Edward Lee French, who was Major William Cotton French's nephew.

I see Major W C French is stated to have seen active service in the South African War - strange that doesn't get a mention in Hart's. Hope I haven't given you a red herring.

The man in the picture from (I suspect) The Sphere has two campaign medals, whereas the picture dated 1897 has just the one - which is presumably the one for the 1895 Chitral Expedition.

The sash and medal is interesting - I don't know if anything can be interpreted from that, but would seem a big co-incidence if they are not the same man. Certainly his helmet seems to support him being with the 3rd Gurkha Rifles by 1897.

So again likely to be the same man (or a very similar looking British Officer serving with the same unit !)

Cheers,
Peter

Yes the pouch belt badge is correctly that of the 3rd Gurkha Rifles along with his helmet badge.  It was shaped similarly to the Rifle Brigade’s badge, but decorated with the iconography and honours of the 3rd Gurkhas, in 1908 the regiment had received the honour title of Queen Alexandra’s (of Denmark) Own and a title with her name plus cypher was added to the bottom and top of the badge in that year, which presence, or absence can be used to estimate the date of the photo.

NB.  3rd Gurkhas suffered very heavily at both Neuve Chappelle and Loos, where caught in front of barbed wire unexpectedly uncut by the preparatory bombardment they, along with their commanding officer, were cut to pieces by well sited German machine guns.

Edited 19 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[George Rayner]

To answer Peter's question-I was Head teacher at Worlingworth school for a short while and he was one of the soldiers on the memorial there

William Cotton French was born on the 26th January 1871, the youngest son of the Rev’d Frederic French, Rector of Worlingworth, Suffolk. After being tutored at home by a governess in his youth, he was privately tutored in his early teens, along with his brother Francis, at Wymondley House, Hertfordshire.

He was then educated at Wellington College in Berkshire, before being accepted to train as an officer cadet at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst.  He took a commission in the Lancashire Fusiliers in about 1890 as a 2nd Lieutenant. He was promoted to Lieutenant on 26th July 1892.

He married Evelyn Mary Rose at Worlingworth on 24th October 1899. They had three children: Hugh Rose French, John William French and Doreen Evelyn French. On the 10th July 1901, he was promoted to Captain and served in South Africa. It is thought that his children were all born in South Africa. He met and became a friend of Colonel James Sutherland Wilkins, the future husband of his sister Dora, who was commander of the Boer concentration camps in South Africa. William became a Major in October 1903 in the 2nd Battalion of the 3rd Gurkha Rifles, after his service in South Africa. In 1907, the regiment became, on the orders of the King and Queen, the 3rd Queen Alexandra’s Own Gurkha Rifles. The regiment was part of the Expeditionary Force that was sent to France in 1914. William was killed in action on the third day of the Battle of Neuve-Chappelle on March 12th 1915 and is buried at Le Touret Military Cemetery. He stood on the parapet and fired a Very pistol to light up no man's land as the Germans counter-attacked and was fatally wounded in the head.

The regimental history recounts “he died instantaneously whilst setting a wonderful example of courage and coolness that he was proverbial for.  The day before he died, he called on his men nearby to bring in a wounded man, who was lying in front of the parapet about 50 yards away.  When no-one volunteered at once, he took off his overcoat and brought him in himself, Fisher helping him.  He was one of the most loveable characters I have ever known and there is no-one here in the Regiment, whose loss would be more generally felt.”

His son John (Jock) William French grew up in the army tradition and won an MC in Italy in World War 2. Uncle Billy, as he was known by his comrades, would have been very proud of his son's achievements.

 

 

Geoffrey Robinson

I got lost a little bit trying to catch up this morning so forgive me if I'm a little behind and answering the wrong question!

George

 

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

To answer Peter's question-I was Head teacher at Worlingworth school for a short while and he was one of the soldiers on the memorial there

William Cotton French was born on the 26th January 1871, the youngest son of the Rev’d Frederic French, Rector of Worlingworth, Suffolk. After being tutored at home by a governess in his youth, he was privately tutored in his early teens, along with his brother Francis, at Wymondley House, Hertfordshire.

He was then educated at Wellington College in Berkshire, before being accepted to train as an officer cadet at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst.  He took a commission in the Lancashire Fusiliers in about 1890 as a 2nd Lieutenant. He was promoted to Lieutenant on 26th July 1892.

He married Evelyn Mary Rose at Worlingworth on 24th October 1899. They had three children: Hugh Rose French, John William French and Doreen Evelyn French. On the 10th July 1901, he was promoted to Captain and served in South Africa. It is thought that his children were all born in South Africa. He met and became a friend of Colonel James Sutherland Wilkins, the future husband of his sister Dora, who was commander of the Boer concentration camps in South Africa. William became a Major in October 1903 in the 2nd Battalion of the 3rd Gurkha Rifles, after his service in South Africa. In 1907, the regiment became, on the orders of the King and Queen, the 3rd Queen Alexandra’s Own Gurkha Rifles. The regiment was part of the Expeditionary Force that was sent to France in 1914. William was killed in action on the third day of the Battle of Neuve-Chappelle on March 12th 1915 and is buried at Le Touret Military Cemetery. He stood on the parapet and fired a Very pistol to light up no man's land as the Germans counter-attacked and was fatally wounded in the head.

The regimental history recounts “he died instantaneously whilst setting a wonderful example of courage and coolness that he was proverbial for.  The day before he died, he called on his men nearby to bring in a wounded man, who was lying in front of the parapet about 50 yards away.  When no-one volunteered at once, he took off his overcoat and brought him in himself, Fisher helping him.  He was one of the most loveable characters I have ever known and there is no-one here in the Regiment, whose loss would be more generally felt.”

His son John (Jock) William French grew up in the army tradition and won an MC in Italy in World War 2. Uncle Billy, as he was known by his comrades, would have been very proud of his son's achievements.

 

 

Geoffrey Robinson

I got lost a little bit trying to catch up this morning so forgive me if I'm a little behind and answering the wrong question!

George

 

Thank you George, that’s very interesting and there are just two small things I would add for accuracy.  The location where regular officers received their training at that time was titled the Royal Military College, Sandhurst.  The contemporary Academy for officers of the technical corps was at Woolwich. 

As regards the unit title, in 1907 the title was indeed changed to become the 3rd The Queen's Own Gurkha Rifles in honour of Alexandra of Denmark, queen consort of King Edward VII, but it was in the following year that the title became more specific when it changed to the 3rd Queen Alexandra's Own Gurkha Rifles.  It was in the latter period that the pouch belt badge changed, which chimes with the pattern of badge we can see our subject wearing in the first photo, which must have been taken soon after his transfer.

Edited 19 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Old Owl]

What an interesting thread!

According to the Boer War Officer's Services book:

French, W.C. (Capt Ind. Army) Queen's medal with 3 clasps

As this is a skeleton entry, I would suggest that the omission of any mention of his IGS'95 medal with clasp, is purely down to a lack of information available.

Robert

[PRC]

2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

They had three children: Hugh Rose French, John William French and Doreen Evelyn French. On the 10th July 1901, he was promoted to Captain and served in South Africa. It is thought that his children were all born in South Africa. 

Most of his service was in India.

The children are fairly elusive, but the crop from the FMP newspaper search results that I posted on page 1 shows a child born at the "Lansdowne" Cantonment in India in 1907. That was probably Doreen Evelyn - the baptism of a Doreen Evelyn French, parents William Cotton French and Evelyn French took place according to a transcription at "Sansdowne", Bengal on the 25th November 1907. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGW8-FR8

A high level search of the 1921 Census of England and Wales doesn't bring up a likely match for Evelyn or her children at Eye. May be a co-incidence but there is an Evelyn Mary French, born c1872 but with no place of birth transcribed, who was recorded at Norwich, a "Frederick" Hugh Rose French *, born circa 1901, India, recorded at Gillingham, Kent, a John William French born India circa 1906 recorded in the parish of Crowthorpe, Easthampstead, Berkshire, and a Doreen Evelyn French, born India c1907, and recorded in the parish of Woodbridge, Suffolk.

*Following this up I found the baptism of a Frederick Hugh Rose French, born 6th January 1901 and the son of William Cotton and Evelyn French, which took place at Ranikhet, Bengal, on the 9th June 1901. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGWP-B7X

While Evelyn may have joined her husband in South Africa after the peace treaty in 1902, (if his services were still required there), I'm not sure how common it was for officers to bring their families with them to a theatre of war.

The Military Cross award to Lieutenant \ temporary Captain \ acting Major John William French, (105738) appears on page 724 to the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 10th February 1944. He was then serving with The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. His residence is given as London S.W.5. There is no citation but the preamble to the list on page 723 records all the awards are for services in Italy. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36371/supplement/1

Cheers,
Peter

[George Rayner]

This is quite fascinating...and now having read it three times may still be confused!

Thanks for additional correction on officer training Frogsmile.

The first newspaper entry I can see says he started in the Welsh Fusiliers in 1890

THE BROAD ARROW : THE NAVAL & MILITARY GAZETTE.

 71;jil ea daughter. His eldest brother, Capt. Halibarton Laurie , w a in the South African War of 1899-1902. Major William Cotton French, 3rd Queen Alexandra's O wn wa s th e Rifles, who was killed near Neuve Chapelle on the 12th inst . ' Su ffolk,' youngest 

26 March 1915 - Broad Arrow - London, London, England

 

He married in Worlingworth 24th October 1899 to Evelyn Mary Rose.

Still looking

George

 

[George Rayner]

19 hours ago, PRC said:

Frederick Hugh Rose French, born 6th January 1901

married in 1936 Miss Avis Marion Durie Parsons in St. Michael's Church Chester Square, London.

 

19 hours ago, PRC said:

John William French born India circa 1906

was the best man.

 Michael’s Church. Chester Square. London, on Saturday of Capt. Frederick Hugh Rose French, elder son of the late Major William Cotton French. 2nd Batt. Queen Alexandra’s Own Gurkha Rifies and of Miss French. The Limes. Great Ashfield. Bury St. Edmunds and 

04 December 1936 - Diss Express - Diss, Norfolk, England

The British Newspaper Archive | findmypast.co.uk

 

George

[George Rayner]

19 hours ago, PRC said:

the baptism of a Doreen Evelyn French, parents William Cotton French and Evelyn French took place according to a transcription at "Sansdowne", Bengal on the 25th November 1907

Name:	Doreen Evelyn French
Gender:	Female
Race:	White
Birth Date:	25 Nov 1907
Baptism Date:	05 Jan 1908
Baptism Age:	0
Baptism Place:	Sansdowne, Bengal, India
Father:	William Cotton French
Mother:	Evelyn
FHL Film Number:	528115

Doreen Evelyn French

in the India, Select Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947

Ancestry

George

[PRC]

I’ve tried looking into this young officer cadet. The picture is noted 1916, but we don’t know if that is January or December 1916, anywhere in between or even just "1916-ish".

My line of thought was that assuming he graduated and was commissioned, and assuming he served in a Theatre of War – both likely assumptions although they can’t be taken for granted – then in that case he would be likely to have gone out as a 2nd Lieutenant \ Lieutenant rather than a higher rank, although again that is an assumption.

My first take is that the signature \ annotation was F.S. Wilkins. A search of the MiCs in the Nattional Archive catalogue only bring up one match for a “Lieutenant” + “F*” and “Wilkins” who has a middle name beginning with an S – Second Lieutenant Frank Stafford Wilkins, Royal Garrison Artillery subsequently Royal Air Force Captain. Struggled to find a gazetting of his commission although there was someone of that name turning up in the London Gazette serving with the RAF post-war and into WW2.

The MiC itself shows his Great War service medals issued by the Air Ministry after a bit of toing and froing when his initial application was forwarded by the Air Ministry to the Army.The MiC is noted no medals for Army Service.
His contact address was given as The Priory, Twyford Avenue, Portsmouth.

However his AIR76 RAF Officers Service record shows him to have been born 26th January 1900, so I don’t think he was at Sandhurst in 1916. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8241832

So going back to the drawing board my other thought was that it might be “J.S. Wilkins”. And surprisingly there is only one match for that combination of initials in the MiC record as well – a Lieutenant James Sutherland Wilkins M.C.

Given the forenames of the retired Indian Medical Service Colonel who was the head of the household at Stayer House on the 1911 Census and brother in law of William Cotton French, the original subject of this thread, that has to be more than just a co-incidence.

He first landed in France on the 7th February 1918.

As well as the Victory Medal and British War Medal, Lieutenant Wilkins also qualified for the General Service Medal with clasp for Iraq – which to me might indicate he was Regular Army rather than a temporary War time commission and so possibly a graduate of the RMC \ RMA. The notes on the back of the MiC add that he was originally on a nominal roll of officers for medals received from O.C. 13 Brigade R.F.A. on the 9th February 1923. He was also on a subsequent nominal roll received from the O.C. 8 Battery on the 1st May 1923.

His contact address looks to be Hinstock, South Farnborough, Hampshire.

As we don’t know when in 1916 any of the potential candidates might have been an officer cadet, my next port of call was the British Monthly Army Officer lists – starting with April 1917 to stand a good chance of catching officers who might have been commissioned attending a training course towards the end of 1916.

The index show one F.S. Wilkins in the Reserve, and one J.S. Wilkins.

F.S. Wilkins is a bit of a head scratcher – this appears to be our 1900 born chap. His entry in Column 194L shows him as 2nd Lieutenant, (on probation), R.G.A. Special Reserve with seniority from the 18th November 1915, and a Flying Officer in the Royal Flying Corps with seniority from the 18th August 1916. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104046884

Not sure, given either date, why he should still be on probation, unless it was because of his age.

Fortunately there is a thread on GWF about his service history – he was actually born 1890 and was an ace with five confirmed kills. He was born Tring, Hertfordshire, but Stafford was not included in the name his birth was registered with. Nothing immediately leaping out to connect him to the families being looked at here.

J.S. Wilkins is on the establishment of the Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery as a 2nd Lieutenant with seniority from the 28th February 1917. He is shown as attached to an Officer Cadet School. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104048684

James Sutherland Wilkie is on a list of Gentleman Cadets from the Royal Military ACADEMY who were appointed Second Lieutenants with effect from the 28th February 1917, and which appeared in The London Gazette dated 27 February 1917. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30430/supplement/13172/data.pdf

The same names from that announcement appear alongside 2\Lt J.S. Wilkins in the April 1917 Army List in the same order.

But he too is a bit of a puzzler – the death of a James Sutherland Wilkins, born 22nd January 1899, was recorded in the Surrey North Western District in Q4 1979. He would have been barely a month passed his 18th birthday when he graduated from the Royal Military Academy, although does provide an explanation of why he didn’t go out to France until February 1918, (MiC information).

And working back through the civil records, a 12 year old James Sutherland Wilkins, born “Poonah”, India, was recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales when it was taken on the 2nd April 1911 at a boarding school at Langley Place, St Leonards on Sea, Sussex.

And further back the baptism of a James “Southerland” Wilkins, born 22nd January 1899, took place at Poona, Bombay, India on the 16th February 1899. His parents were Ernest George Rale Wilkins and Georgina Martha Harriot Elise Wilkins. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCM-QVP

According to this family tree on the familysearch website, Lieutenant Colonel Ernest George Rale Wilkins, born c1862, was the younger brother of the James Sutherland Wilkins, born c1851. https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/9JYT-LZC

If that is correct then Lieutenant James Sutherland Wilkins, M.C., R.F.A., if indeed he is the man pictured, was the nephew of Lieutenant Colonel James Sutherland Wilkins of Stayer House, Eye.

Interestingly, given the connection through marriage to the Reverend French, when a 48 year old married James Sutherland Wilkins, a Military man from London, flew into Montevideo in 1947 aboard a KLM flight, his religion was recorded as Catholic. (Ignore the transcription error on the familysearch site – the original document shows his nationality as “Ingles” not “Americana”). https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CBMX-QV2M

So not only part of an extensively interwoven network of Anglo-Indian familes to be found throughout the Indian military and civil service establishment, but perhap one of the Roman Catholic families that could only find social and career advancement through service there at that time in history.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 20 February , 2022 by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant work Peter, little doubt that he is any but James Sutherland I think.  There’s nothing in his officer cadet uniform to suggest otherwise.  Indeed by that time the SD uniform used by RMA and RMC was identical and even the OSD bronze badges were identical in shape/outline.

Edited 20 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[arantxa]

That’s the man one hundred percent 

fantastic thank you 

 

[arantxa]

You are superb at finding out info !!!! 

[rob carman]

On 18/02/2022 at 13:05, charlie962 said:

Major Woolnough commanded the Eye Rifle Volunteers, a company of the Norfolk's, I think.

The companies of the 2nd VB Suffolk Regt were located as follows in 1900: 

A - Stowmarket.

B - Eye.

C - Eye.

D - Sudbury.

E - Bury St Edmunds.

F - Bury St Edmunds.

G - Hadleigh.

H - Newmarket.

[charlie962]

52 minutes ago, rob carman said:

The companies of the 2nd VB Suffolk Regt were located as follows in 1900: 

A - Stowmarket.

B - Eye.

C - Eye.

D - Sudbury.

E - Bury St Edmunds.

F - Bury St Edmunds.

G - Hadleigh.

H - Newmarket.

I did qualify my Norfolk with an 'i think' but I confess my geography is not good on the further reaches of the eastern provinces.

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I did qualify my Norfolk with an 'i think' but I confess my geography is not good on the further reaches of the eastern provinces.

Charlie

The 2nd and 3rd VBs wore a star shaped helmet plate.  Only the 1st VB had the cross shaped plate shown in the photo of Woolnough. 

Edited 21 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE