Two British Soldiers (Need Assistance)

[Eoin Gallacher]

I may be wrong here but I believe he served in the 1st? and was then transferred to the 1/5th

 

 

 

He was at a casualty Clearing station early Oct 1917 (he obviously received these wounds in action)...

The 1/5th went to India and was sent to Mesopotamia (Iraq) in Dec 1917 - therefore this cant be him as they weren't in any sort of action in Oct 1917 as they were in India...

the Medal roll says 1st TF... non of the others men have 5th next to there name inferring they were all moved to the 5th collectively at some point (if you get what I mean) for example Frederick M Taylor (top of page) was in the 7th TF (and served overseas with the 7th) and has been transferred to the 5th Territorial Force.

 

Now I don't know what it means by 1st TF as the 1st batt was a regular battalion. the 1st served in France at the time.

His Medical record for his injury says he was in the 1st RW Kents... who were at The Battle of Broodseinde on the 4th Oct 1917 apart of the 3rd Battle of Ypres.

 

Maybe after he was wounded he was transferred to the 5th (I don't know if he would have went to Iraq with the 5th though) as he was discharged in April 1918

Interestingly he would have been wounded just under a year after his brother was killed.

The 1st West Kents casualty's on the 4th Oct amounted to 368 Other Ranks including 69 killed.

At the bottom of the Medal Roll page Pte F D Churchill was in the 1st West Kents (similarly to John I believe) and was Killed on the 4th October 1917.

 

I think John fought overseas with the 1st and was transferred to 5th after he was wounded

There could be more to it or I may be wrong and others with more knowledge and experience might correct me but I've tried! 

Hope this is Helpful!

Eoin

Edited 19 March , 2023 by Eoin Gallacher

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, Eoin Gallacher said:

Now I don't know what it means by 1st TF

I think the TF refers to the number that follows rather than the Battalion. Those 6 digit service numbers are TF numbers.

It is not unreasonable for a TF man to find himself in a Regular bn. 

Charlie

[Eoin Gallacher]

Ah ok! makes sense

So most likely he was in the 1st and served in France

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, Eoin Gallacher said:

think John fought overseas with the 1st and was transferred to 5th after he was wounded

I've looked at a couple of surviving service records for men on this roll. Although they start off in 2/5th RWKs they are soon posted to another Bn with which they then go overseas. They never return to 2/5th or any other -/5th bn.

This makes me think that the header of the roll as 5th bn is merely an administrative issue for these TF men, particularly when their active service was with a Regular or Service Bn. 

Thus I think you are right in thinking he (Wood) only served with 1st RWK overseas.

Charlie 

 

Service records seen:

Thomas 242254

Dunsby 242269

Edited 19 March , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, Eoin Gallacher said:

The 1st West Kents casualty's on the 4th Oct amounted to 368 Other Ranks including 69 killed

The war diary for Oct 1917 being here on Ancestry (forgive me if it has already been posted earlier) 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60779/images/43112_1555_0-00139?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=b7516abde1709aaeea91dc6567cf7756&pId=438892

Charlie

[Eoin Gallacher]

No its hasn't been posted, and I didn't realise it was on Ancestry  

Yeah he was transferred from one CCS to another on the 7th Oct...

And the last battle was the one on the 4th October - So that could have been were he got his wounds 

Like I said before the casualty's were 368 OR, John may have been one.

FMP ^

Eoin

Edited 19 March , 2023 by Eoin Gallacher

[charlie962]

37 minutes ago, Eoin Gallacher said:

And the last battle was the one on the 4th October - So that could have been were he got his wounds 

A man who probably followed the same path is Youlton 242266 who has  not only a surviving service record but also a hospital admission record identical to Wood in that he was admitted wounded to 11CCS on 6/10/17 and shipped out on 22 Ambulance Train the next day. What Youlton's service record confirms is a date of wounding of 4/10/17. Furthermore it shows Youlton only arriving in France 12th Sept 1917. And Hosp Admission for both Youlton and Wood is blank for 'completed months with Field force'. 

Lots of parallels between Wood and Youlton. 

I suggest Wood had also only just arrived in France , at the same time, 12/9/17, as Youlton, and both were wounded 4/10/17 in that battle you highlighted and for which I've posted link to war diary. 

Wood may even have been mobilised same day as Youlton, ie 16/2/17 to 2/5th RWK and almost certainly posted to 1st RWK on 16/9/17 just after landing in France. 

Youlton was evacuated back to UK 18/10/17. Here we cannot be sure** when Wood might have been evacuated, all depends on hospital workload and state of his wounds.

Charlie 

**Edit. Youlton was discharged 10/4/18 due to wounds and Wood was discharged 17/4/18 due to wounds so they were probably evacuated to UK about the same time!

Edited 19 March , 2023 by charlie962

[Eoin Gallacher]

Wow, great Work!

Its an amazing find, and that there service was very similar!

The Battle of Broodseinde (Wikipedia) - "The Battle of Broodseinde was fought on 4 October 1917 near Ypres in Belgium, at the east end of the Gheluvelt plateau, by the British Second and Fifth armies against the German 4th Army. The battle was the most successful Allied attack of the Third Battle of Ypres." 

Him being there only a mouth before receiving life threatening injuries... very Unfortunate

Eoin

[charlie962]

A few further bits.

I am happy from seeing further near number service records that Wood was mobilised 16/2/17. When he had originally attested I don't know.

When he went to France he will have been at 40 Infantry Base Depot, Etaples, 12/9/17, posted to 1st Bn RWK on 16/9/17 and joined the Bn in the field 18/9/17. 

 

War Diary 1RWK :

18/9/17 At 12:15am..a draft of 248 ORs arrived bringing up the fighting strength to 828 ORs.. 

 

note those casualties of 4/10/17 represented nearly 50% of that fighting strength of 2 weeks earlier

Edited 19 March , 2023 by charlie962

[pmboxing]

 

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

A few further bits.

I am happy from seeing further near number service records that Wood was mobilised 16/2/17. When he had originally attested I don't know.

When he went to France he will have been at 40 Infantry Base Depot, Etaples, 12/9/17, posted to 1st Bn RWK on 16/9/17 and joined the Bn in the field 18/9/17. 

 

War Diary 1RWK :

18/9/17 At 12:15am..a draft of 248 ORs arrived bringing up the fighting strength to 828 ORs.. 

 

note those casualties of 4/10/17 represented nearly 50% of that fighting strength of 2 weeks earlier

 

5 hours ago, Eoin Gallacher said:

Wow, great Work!

Its an amazing find, and that there service was very similar!

The Battle of Broodseinde (Wikipedia) - "The Battle of Broodseinde was fought on 4 October 1917 near Ypres in Belgium, at the east end of the Gheluvelt plateau, by the British Second and Fifth armies against the German 4th Army. The battle was the most successful Allied attack of the Third Battle of Ypres." 

Him being there only a mouth before receiving life threatening injuries... very Unfortunate

Eoin

Wow! Both of you did some amazing work; great job working through the face value administrative issues with the paperwork. 3rd Battle of Ypres coincides with the location of Casualty Clearing Station 11, being at Godewaersvelde, according to the Long, Long Trail website, as well as the war diary for the 1st Royal West Kents. I think we hit our mark. 

Very interesting there are so many parallels between my relative, Wood, and Youlton. Absolutely mind-boggling to think casualties amounted to half of the fighting strength as mentioned by Charlie. 

Eoin noticed that both brothers were in action nearly a year apart, with Horace being killed and John being severely wounded. Such a coincidence.

Being that John Saunders had his leg partially amputated, I would assume he would have been moved to an administrative role considering his discharge date is six months post WIA. Unless they were kept in while still being treated, and that bout lasted six months before hospital work and discharge paperwork was complete.

 

Horace Wood: Killed in attacks on Snag Trench, near Butte de Warlencourt, October 7, 1916. No known grave. 1/7 Bn London Regiment. Remembered at Thiepval. Battle of the Somme.

John Saunders Wood: WIA (SW Leg, Hand) The Battle of Broodseinde, c. October 4-6, 1917. 1st RWK, 3rd Battle of Ypres. Died November 6, 1962.

Edited 20 March , 2023 by pmboxing

[pmboxing]

Another interesting note: 

Pte. Youlton, who shares so many parallels to my ancestor, John Wood, shows up as a hit in a 2015 auction:

http://www.auction-net.co.uk/viewAuction.php?id=2094&offset=150

Up for auction... his British War Medal. 

 

Wow, if I could ever have the possibility of tracing the buyer for said medal, I would certainly want to purchase.

[charlie962]

Did you ever manage to copy the photo? It is always good to put a face to a name. 

Charlie

[pmboxing]

15 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Did you ever manage to copy the photo? It is always good to put a face to a name. 

Charlie

Will be getting that done this week. My grandmother's things are currently packed up as she is moving. Will dig through the boxes and find that photo. 

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, pmboxing said:

Will be getting that done this week. My grandmother's things are currently packed up as she is moving. Will dig through the boxes and find that photo. 

Great.