Army in Clonmany

[Pat Randles]

Hi everyone have just this site today.

I have searched everywhere for details of my Irish Grandfather who was in Clonmany in 1916/17 he moved to Enniskillen in 1918. Was looking for information on what Army Regiment he would have been in. He was born in 1872 in Co Longford and apparently joined the British Army approximately 1895/1897 again I cannot find any records. He was a serving soldier in 1902  when he got married in Cavan Town Co. Cavan.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you in advance

Pat.

 

[Terry_Reeves]

Pat, you need to post his name.

TR

[PRC]

Hi @Pat Randles and welcome to the forum.

Several units get a mention on this old forum thread

However, like Terry says, a name and a bit more personal information, (full name, date/year of birth, birthplace, regiment in 1902, wife's name - any or all of those would help) at it might well be possible to work through from that to be more definate.

Cheers,

Peter

[Pat Randles]

33 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Pat, you need to post his name.

TR

Thank you. His name was Edward McInerney/ McEnerney/ McNerney, his birth name was Murtagh, but he kept changing it.

he was born in June 1872 in Co. Longford. Unfortunately I do not have his Regiment in 1902, going on his marriage in Cavan to Mary Ellen Wilson. 

He signed up in 1923 in Daldalk I have these papers, but was discharged in 1924 after his wife died in the Dublin Workhouse, he was jailed for neglecting his children. I have no other info for him, only that he had said on his papers when he signed up in Daldalk that he was in the British Army in 1895. 

[FROGSMILE]

A start point should be the Leinster Regiment as Co Longford was within their recruiting area.  However, he might have joined the cavalry or Royal Artillery too.  Nevertheless, the Leinster’s are the  unit to consider and investigate first.  The regimental headquarters and depot was in Renmore Barracks, Galway.

Edited 12 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Randles]

Thank you very much for tthe information its much appreciated..

I'll definitely have a look to see what I can find.

My tthoughts also are that he may have joined up in Cavan Town, as that is where  he obviously met my Grandmother as she lived in the Town and they married there.

Regards

Pat.

 

[Pat Randles]

17 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi @Pat Randles and welcome to the forum.

Several units get a mention on this old forum thread

However, like Terry says, a name and a bit more personal information, (full name, date/year of birth, birthplace, regiment in 1902, wife's name - any or all of those would help) at it might well be possible to work through from that to be more definate.

Cheers,

Peter

Thank you

 

[George Rayner]

He is mentioned in a newspaper-corroborated in Irish Prison records-1914

Longford Journal 08 August 1914

Courtesy FMP

George

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Pat Randles said:

Thank you very much for tthe information its much appreciated..

I'll definitely have a look to see what I can find.

My tthoughts also are that he may have joined up in Cavan Town, as that is where  he obviously met my Grandmother as she lived in the Town and they married there.

Regards

Pat.

 

The regiment associated with Cavan was the Royal Irish Fusiliers (Princess Victoria’s).  Their headquarters and depot were in Gough Barracks, Armagh.

Edited 13 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

17 hours ago, Pat Randles said:

Unfortunately I do not have his Regiment in 1902, going on his marriage in Cavan to Mary Ellen Wilson. 

What was his name when he married in 1902? If he'd wanted to claim allowances \ accomodation for her he would have had to verified they were married, so likely marriage name is the one he was known as in the Army at that time.

17 hours ago, Pat Randles said:

he was jailed for neglecting his children.

What was their names and when were they born? The UK General Registrars Office maintained a separate list for Armed Forces and Overseas Births. For children born in England & Wales this is a partial duplication of what's available in the parallel civil record but is less precise about quarter born and adds where the father was stationed and which unit he was serving with at the regimental \ corps level.

17 hours ago, Pat Randles said:

only that he had said on his papers when he signed up in Daldalk that he was in the British Army in 1895

The standard short term enlistment in the British Army was 12 years, consisting of a period in the colours, (i.e. in Barracks, in uniform, subject to military discipline 24/7, receiving full pay and board) and a period in the reserves, (i.e. in civvy street, subject to military discipline only when attending refresher training, receiving half pay and liable to recall in the event of war or national emergency). The most common split at that time was 7 years in the colours and five in the reserves. Once the 12 years were up the man had no liability for military service, although if his record was reasonably good he could apply for another four years in the General Army Reserve and continue to receive half-pay.

The long service enlistment, which also qualified for a pension, was 21 years. That was all spent in the colours.

There were some positions available for lads from 14 onwards, but the overwhelming majority of recruits needed to be 18 - or at least state they were 18. Only in extreme cases was any attempt made at verifying age, (and identity for that matter). And once a man signed up with a false name and date of birth that tended to stay with them for the duration of their military career - it's not unknown for a man to have an army age and a civilian age.

With a birth of June 1872 and assuming he didn't lie about his age then you are probably looking at an enlistment from 1890 onwards. With a 12 year enlistment you are looking at him being time expired from 1902 onwards - even if he didn't sign up until 1895, that takes him until 1907, and even with the additional 4 years option that would have seem him finished by 1911. As a civilian he would also be likely to turn up on the 1911 Census somewhere. Only a 21 year enlistment would have seen him liable for service in the Great War, and once again we are talking probably an 1894/95 enlistment. He could have been allowed to stay on beyond 21 years, which would potentially mean his enlistment could have come earlier, but I don't think I've ever come across it for a man who was a Private - most records, if not all I've ever looked have been for senior NCO's.

17 hours ago, Pat Randles said:

Unfortunately I do not have his Regiment in 1902, going on his marriage in Cavan to Mary Ellen Wilson

Could be a co-incidence, but not uncommon for soldiers to marry shortly before or after completing their time in the colours in my experience. So an 1895 enlistment split 7 and 5 would have seen the period in the colours ending in 1902. However that could be a complete red herring.

All this assumes he wasn't discharged early, even honourably or dishonourably. Time expired he would have been welcomed back into his old regiment and same probably if he purchased his release. But medically discharged or dishonourably discharged, for example following conviction by the civil powers, would mean almost certainly new name and different regiment. I note from the article George has found that at the time of his trial in August 1914 that Edward had a previous conviction. There is also no reference to him serving in the Army at that time.

Cheers,
Peter

[George Rayner]

18 hours ago, Pat Randles said:

Edward McInerney/ McEnerney/ McNerney,

 

18 hours ago, Pat Randles said:

He signed up in 1923 in Daldalk

What name did he use for this signing up form please?

George

[Pat Randles]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

What was his name when he married in 1902? If he'd wanted to claim allowances \ accomodation for her he would have had to verified they were married, so likely marriage name is the one he was known as in the Army at that time.

What was their names and when were they born? The UK General Registrars Office maintained a separate list for Armed Forces and Overseas Births. For children born in England & Wales this is a partial duplication of what's available in the parallel civil record but is less precise about quarter born and adds where the father was stationed and which unit he was serving with at the regimental \ corps level.

The standard short term enlistment in the British Army was 12 years, consisting of a period in the colours, (i.e. in Barracks, in uniform, subject to military discipline 24/7, receiving full pay and board) and a period in the reserves, (i.e. in civvy street, subject to military discipline only when attending refresher training, receiving half pay and liable to recall in the event of war or national emergency). The most common split at that time was 7 years in the colours and five in the reserves. Once the 12 years were up the man had no liability for military service, although if his record was reasonably good he could apply for another four years in the General Army Reserve and continue to receive half-pay.

The long service enlistment, which also qualified for a pension, was 21 years. That was all spent in the colours.

There were some positions available for lads from 14 onwards, but the overwhelming majority of recruits needed to be 18 - or at least state they were 18. Only in extreme cases was any attempt made at verifying age, (and identity for that matter). And once a man signed up with a false name and date of birth that tended to stay with them for the duration of their military career - it's not unknown for a man to have an army age and a civilian age.

With a birth of June 1872 and assuming he didn't lie about his age then you are probably looking at an enlistment from 1890 onwards. With a 12 year enlistment you are looking at him being time expired from 1902 onwards - even if he didn't sign up until 1895, that takes him until 1907, and even with the additional 4 years option that would have seem him finished by 1911. As a civilian he would also be likely to turn up on the 1911 Census somewhere. Only a 21 year enlistment would have seen him liable for service in the Great War, and once again we are talking probably an 1894/95 enlistment. He could have been allowed to stay on beyond 21 years, which would potentially mean his enlistment could have come earlier, but I don't think I've ever come across it for a man who was a Private - most records, if not all I've ever looked have been for senior NCO's.

Could be a co-incidence, but not uncommon for soldiers to marry shortly before or after completing their time in the colours in my experience. So an 1895 enlistment split 7 and 5 would have seen the period in the colours ending in 1902. However that could be a complete red herring.

All this assumes he wasn't discharged early, even honourably or dishonourably. Time expired he would have been welcomed back into his old regiment and same probably if he purchased his release. But medically discharged or dishonourably discharged, for example following conviction by the civil powers, would mean almost certainly new name and different regiment. I note from the article George has found that at the time of his trial in August 1914 that Edward had a previous conviction. There is also no reference to him serving in the Army at that time.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter, his children were born in different areas, my Dad was born 1911 in Cavan, there were others born there too. Another was born in Jan 1917 Clonmany it states Edward McInerney Father, occupation Soldier, another born in Feb 1918 in  Clonmany, this child died. Another child born in Nov 1919 at Wellington Place Enniskillen again states Edward was a Soldier. A marriage of Margaret McInerney (Edwards daughter) in 1922 at Enniskillen she married a soldier.

I do have court records of offences he committed in civvy street after 1902. 

[Pat Randles]

5 hours ago, George Rayner said:

 

What name did he use for this signing up form please?

George

He used Mcinerney in Feb 1923 on his agreement and Attestation form signed in 1923 in Daldalk. I then have another Attestation form dated 25th Feb 1924 for Island Bridge 22nd Batt.Dublin. 

His name on marriage cert was Murtagh 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Pat Randles said:

He used Mcinerney in Feb 1923 on his agreement and Attestation form signed in 1923 in Daldalk. I then have another Attestation form dated 25th Feb 1924 for Island Bridge 22nd Batt.Dublin. 

His name on marriage cert was Murtagh 

22nd Battalion of what? 

[Pat Randles]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

22nd Battalion of what? 

Think it was the Natiional Army if thats what you called it. His number was 40046 is there any way i can send copies to you.

[Jervis]

2 hours ago, Pat Randles said:

Think it was the Natiional Army if thats what you called it. His number was 40046 is there any way i can send copies to you.

I think those attestation papers are for the Irish Army. A lot of ex. British soldiers joined the new Irish army in this period.

Also Daldalk might actually be Dundalk. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Pat Randles said:

Think it was the Natiional Army if thats what you called it. His number was 40046 is there any way i can send copies to you.

I see.  When explaining what you’re seeking Pat, it’s important to differentiate between the Free State Army and the British Army if we’re to understand your thought process and what exactly you’re trying to find out.

Edited 13 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Jervis]

Notwithstanding the later enlistment to the Free state Army, Edward McInerney/Murtagh did serve in the British Army. His 1902 marriage cert records his occupation as a soldier. And this child birth cert records him as a solider in Jan 1917.

It would appear he did his earlier service and left the army. By 1913 he was a labourer. He was actually in prison for the outbreak of war. So could not have been immediately mobilised. He lived for several years in Cavan, but during the war he re-enlisted and appeared to be living with his family at Clonmany in the Inishowen peninsula. I am assuming due to age and the fact that two children had been born (1917 &1918) that McInereney/Murtagh did not serve overseas and was involved in some home duties. (Hence no medal records) I am guessing some garrison duty in Inishowen. 
 

God knows what he was doing enlisting in the Free state Army in 1923 & 1924 in his fifties. What is even stranger is that the Free State Army was demobilising at this time. Post civil war. Reducing from 50k to 28K men. So it is odd that he was retained/enlisted at that age. I would speculate he had some military skill or experience from his British army days that the new army needed. 
 

Jervis

[FROGSMILE]

If he first enlisted circa “1895/1897” and was still serving 1902, then unless he was in the Militia, of which the Irish Regiments had more than the usual number of battalions, it seems likely that he will have served in South Africa.  If he can be traced in the QSA/KSA medal rolls then his regiment should be revealed.

Edited 14 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Randles]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I see.  When explaining what you’re seeking Pat, it’s important to differentiate between the Free State Army and the British Army if we’re to understand your thought process and what exactly you’re trying to find out.

Sorry if I've confused things. He was in the British Army 1895 or 1897. I have nothing to confirm this only what he said on his Attestation Form in 1924. My father also said his father was in the British Army.

My original post was seeking any information on what Army he would have been in whilst in Clonmany 1917 and Enniskillen in 1918

Thank you everybody all for the help you have given me. I'll certainly look into the replies that have been posted.

Regards,

Pat.

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, Pat Randles said:

My original post was seeking any information on what Army he would have been in whilst in Clonmany 1917 and Enniskillen in 1918

It could only be the British Army at that point - the Army of the Irish Free State was only formed in 1922 - the question is, what unit of the British Army.

Craig

[Pat Randles]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I see.  When explaining what you’re seeking Pat, it’s important to differentiate between the Free State Army and the British Army if we’re to understand your thought process and what exactly you’re trying to find out.

 

14 hours ago, Jervis said:

Notwithstanding the later enlistment to the Free state Army, Edward McInerney/Murtagh did serve in the British Army. His 1902 marriage cert records his occupation as a soldier. And this child birth cert records him as a solider in Jan 1917.

It would appear he did his earlier service and left the army. By 1913 he was a labourer. He was actually in prison for the outbreak of war. So could not have been immediately mobilised. He lived for several years in Cavan, but during the war he re-enlisted and appeared to be living with his family at Clonmany in the Inishowen peninsula. I am assuming due to age and the fact that two children had been born (1917 &1918) that McInereney/Murtagh did not serve overseas and was involved in some home duties. (Hence no medal records) I am guessing some garrison duty in Inishowen. 
 

God knows what he was doing enlisting in the Free state Army in 1923 & 1924 in his fifties. What is even stranger is that the Free State Army was demobilising at this time. Post civil war. Reducing from 50k to 28K men. So it is odd that he was retained/enlisted at that age. I would speculate he had some military skill or experience from his British army days that the new army needed. 
 

Jervis 

Thank you very much for your feedback. Edward has proved to be a big mystery throughout all my research, he kept changing his dob name and where he was born many times. When he signed up in Dundalk in 1923 he stated he was 35 years of age and he was born in Co. Monaghan, which is not so.

My late father was in the Dorsetshire Regiment from 1938-1945. My husband is ex Army too

I'll probably have to give it up as a bad job.

Pat.

 

 

[Pat Randles]

10 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It could only be the British Army at that point - the Army of the Irish Free State was only formed in 1922 - the question is, what unit of the British Army.

Craig

Thank you, that is what I'm trying to establish. have even checked for him at Enniskillen. 

Pat.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It could only be the British Army at that point - the Army of the Irish Free State was only formed in 1922 - the question is, what unit of the British Army.

Craig

Th

[ss002d6252]

In 1901 he was living at Granard. Presumably in the barracks there. If the units in the barracks can be established, that gives us a start on that period. (Royal Irish Regiment ?).



Craig

[Pat Randles]

4 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

In 1901 he was living at Granard. Presumably in the barracks there. If the units in the barracks can be established, that gives us a start on that period. (Royal Irish Regiment ?).



Craig

Thank you for this information, I have these details on his marriage cert in 1902 in Cavan. I cannot find him anywhere on the 1901 census. Was there a Barracks in Granard 1901?