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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Uncle Fred Clarke, MM, Queen's.


JENNIFER GOLDING

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This is my first posting. I seek the Forum's help in filling in the gaps in my knowledge, because I would like a record of my Uncle's sacrifice to survive me.

His name was Private G/10832 Frederick John Clarke, 11th battalion Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment. He was killed in action, aged 23 years, on 29th August 1918.

His parents were Hannah and Arthur Clarke, and he was born in Lewisham.

Before enlisting in Lambeth he lived in Streatham.

His grave, which I have visited, is at Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery, Grave Ref: XXV.J.21.

I hold his Military Medal, the inscription on the edge reads: 

G-10832 Pte.F.J.CLARKE 11/THE QUEEN'S R.

I do not have his British War Medal, Victory Medal or his Death Plaque. ( I do not know if he qualifies for the 1914 14/15 Star). I would like to unite his medals if at all possible.

Please can the Forum experts suggest when he might have enlisted, when he went to France and Flanders, and what action earned him his medal in 1916? He was a Signaller, I believe. These records were lost in WW2 due to bombing. I do not know how to access the unit's War Diary or the Medal Index Cards.

I remember as a child seeing a photographic negative of a Celtic-style memorial cross about 12 feet tall with his name on it but have no idea where it was.

Any help would be gratefully received. Thank you.

Mrs. Jennifer Golding (nee Clarke) 
email address removed 

Clarke Fred b.jpg

IMG_8162 (1).jpg

IMG_8163 (1).jpg

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Welcome to the forum. Currently, war diaries are free to download via the National Archives website. You have to register first but that’s also free. The NA also have scans of the medal index cards but these are poor scans and six to a page. Ancestry have colour scans which are part of the free access.

Michelle

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Hi @JENNIFER GOLDING and welcome to the forum.

58 minutes ago, JENNIFER GOLDING said:

I do not know if he qualifies for the 1914 14/15 Star

His Medal Index Card only shows him qualifying for the Victory Medal & British War Medal. This combination would indicate he did not serve in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

The 11th Battalion didn't go out to France until early May 1916. landing at Le Havre on the 5th. A typed up copy of the 11th Battalion War Diary can be found online here:- https://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/local/11Bn_Queens/11Bn_Queens_1916/11Bn_Queens_1916_05.shtml

It's unlikely to mention him by name, but will give some idea of where they were and what they were up to.

If you have access to Ancestry then may be worthwhile looking out the related service medal roll that covers both medals. If the clerk completing it followed standing instructions, (a big if, compliance varied enormously, even with the same regimental return), then it should show all the units he served with overseas. Hopefully in this case his service will all be with the 11th Battalion and that will explain the service medal qualification.

Soldiers Died in the Great War, an H.M.S.O. publication from the 1920's shows that he was killed in action, was born Lewisham, Kent, resident Streatham, Surrey and enlisted Lambeth, Surrey.

A search of nearby service numbers may turn up examples of men with surviving service records. If patterns of service can be established then they may apply to your uncle.

Hope that gets you started,
Peter

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13 minutes ago, PRC said:

If the clerk completing it followed standing instructions, (a big if, compliance varied enormously, even with the same regimental return), then it should show all the units he served with overseas. Hopefully in this case his service will all be with the 11th Battalion and that will explain the service medal qualification.

801989837_GWFClarkeFJ11RWSRoll.JPG.ef7b2fd1e593ce0530e1c97bd6825dbd.JPGcourtesy Ancestry

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Welcome to the GWF. Lovely medal to have in the family! His MM Index Card from TNA - ref. WO 372/23/91015 shows his schedule number 51241.

According to Bate & Williamson that LG is for the Somme between 5 Sept & 12 Oct 1916 - probably October going by his later range S.No..

image.png.1947fafa4767507665aad626e0a78203.pngHis Mm Index Card from TNA

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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I recall both the battersea (10th) and Lambeth (11th) had a fair amount of media and local council material available.  there was much media, mayoral competition and i think records.  The fact they were raised locally fuelled the interest. 

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Just now, charlie962 said:

801989837_GWFClarkeFJ11RWSRoll.JPG.ef7b2fd1e593ce0530e1c97bd6825dbd.JPGcourtesy Ancestry

Thanks Charlie.

Started with the 11th Battalion, so good chance he went out with them when they first deployed overseas.

FMP has a medical admissions register entry for a 10832 F. J. Clarke dating from 1917, so hopefully someone with access can tell us what Battalion he was serving with then.

Cheers,
Peter

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When he was having his teeth done on 26/7/17 at 139th Field Ambulance  he was C Company of 11th Bn at the time. Note also overseas for 1 years 4 month at that stage.  Back on duty the next day.

1998148756_GWFClarkeFJ11RWSHospAdm.JPG.0001e93795a569cd1555ac209ecdc95a.JPGcourtesy FindmyPast/NA

Edited by charlie962
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Here is on the HMSO  27 sept 1918 casualty lists published 01 Oct 1918 as killed.

 

8EA0ADE8-174E-4B48-99E6-841C61E39BC8.jpeg.743a5b7cfc38583ac75ab35020e1b2bc.jpeg

Edited by AndrewSid
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Captain EWJ Neave's History of 11th Battalion the Queens lists FJ Clarke as joining the battalion in July 1915. If he enlisted in Lambeth he would have enlisted at the town hall and was among the first to join the battalion. Neave lists about 230 men who joined in June and July 1915. The battalion trained in Brockwell Park initially and moved to Aldershot in January 1916.  

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His formal move to the 8th then back to the 11th suggests an event of some kind?  Both units were in france for the time we are considering. 

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This extract from Captain Neave's history of the battalion describes the action for which Pte Clarke was awarded the MM. I am a little puzzled by Neave's reference to the Popham Panel which I did not think came into service until the closing stages of the war but I am no expert on ground to air communication.

 

Neave Extract_20220211_0001.pdf

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Hi Jennifer,

Welcome to the Forum,

On Ancestry, his Soldiers Effects record is here. As a reflection of rank and time served, the amount of War Gratuity shown as being paid can be used to back calculate overall service counting from circa July 1915. 

Findmypast have a 'hospital' admission/discharge record (link) which reads as:

Rank: Private
First name(s): F J
Last name: Clarke
Unit: 'C' Company, 11th Battalion Royal West Surrey Regiment
Service number: 10832
Admitted (aged 21) to 139 Field Ambulance for "Dental fillings"26.8.1917. Discharged to unit 27.8.1917
Completed service: 25 months overall/16 months overseas

 


 

Edited by clk
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CWGC has him as killed 29th whilst Soliders Died  in the Great War has the 28th.

The war diary has one man killed on the 28th and none on the 29th.  The  Bn was relieved and taken out of the front line  on the 29th.

The war diary of the 28th reports 1 other rank (OR) killed and 4 wounded.  Enemy shellfire into their lines during the very early hours from 0340.  Rest of the day was quiet.

 

 

Edited by AndrewSid
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Disappeared down a rabbit hole looking for near service numbers - there was an L\ prefix as well as a G\ prefix in use with the same five digit number ranges, and many of the surviving documents have dropped references the prefix, so could be either. The only thing I could find via FMP search was what appear to be the discharge papers from 1919 for G/10831 Henry Charles Green - if anyone would care to take a look:).

As for those who died with nearby service number G/10834 Arthur John Hardwick, 11th Bn, enlisted Lambeth, KiA 24th July 1916 in France, G/10835 Frank Cullen, 11th Bn, enlisted Lambeth, died 22nd June 1917 in the UK.

Cheers,
Peter

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To add the 11th Bn arrived  in Le Havre from Aldershot on the 5th of May 1916.

Jennifer - the war diaries can be a hard read but id recommend the two downloads of the Bn diary from the National Archives to tell his story.  

 

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@JENNIFER GOLDING I’ve removed your email address from your post, it’s never a good idea to put information like that in a public forum, as spammers can harvest information.  Looks like you have a few replies to work through. 
Michelle 

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Re Fred Clarke, Many thanks everyone for all the information. keep it coming please! Also Michelle for removing my email address, in retrospect I thought it a bad idea, as you say.

I shall have plenty to do in the coming days.

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