John K R Frey, MI 1c Intelligence

[Matmu]

1 minute ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Hi Matmu,

This has no direct bearing on you researching your paternal grandfather, it is a comment about how one's latter regiment could record details about a soldier's first regiment. The fact that he is on roll INTELL 1C, and Bennett is on roll RE 27C are a quirk of recording information on medal rolls. 

In the same manner that British soldiers with linguistic skills were in the 10th (Intelligence) battalion of the Royal Fusiliers, the French similarly put such men in the 19th squadron of train and transportation. 

If your grandfather enlisted after the declaration of war with the Liverpool Regiment under Regular terms of service, and was issued a service number of 12640, this would tie in with Paul Nixon's research, I think
https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/07/kings-liverpool-regiment-1st-2nd.html
I don't know what the number sequence would be for those enlisting in the Liverpool Regiment under Special Reserve terms of service. Although the "3/" prefix implies Special Reserve, it could apply to a wounded soldier who was recuperating with the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion when the unique prefix order came out in 1915. (This will go over your head, I do not doubt it.)

I don't have instant access to Ancestry, so cannot see what it states on the BWM & VM medal roll against his name.

You know me already! A little over, yes.  I can post you his medal roll index card

[Keith_history_buff]

You may find the following of interest:

pre-war, 1914 and after
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/

postwar short service re-enlistments
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/re-enlisting-into-the-army-in-1919/

 

[Matmu]

Just now, Keith_history_buff said:

You may find the following of interest:

pre-war, 1914 and after
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/

postwar short service re-enlistments
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/re-enlisting-into-the-army-in-1919/

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

I have seen both medal index cards on Ancestry, so no need to post, but thanks for the offer.

[QUEX]

3 minutes ago, Matmu said:

OK thanks Quex.  Any theories?!

None, I'm afraid.  He could have stayed on in Germany after discharge, in which case he would not have been enumerated. But he could have been anywhere.

[Matmu]

Just now, Keith_history_buff said:

I have seen both medal index cards on Ancestry, so no need to post, but thanks for the offer.

Oops sorry!

Just now, QUEX said:

None, I'm afraid.  He could have stayed on in Germany after discharge, in which case he would not have been enumerated. But he could have been anywhere.

OK thanks, I could look for death registration in germany perhaps

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I don't have instant access to Ancestry, so cannot see what it states on the BWM & VM medal roll against his name.

I sort of covered that in my first reply to OP ?

 

2 hours ago, corisande said:

It is looking increasing likely that John/Johan Frey/Fry deserted her and disappeared to ??

FindmyPast records three births with father Frey and mother Ginley. Last one 1923. Do birth certificates tell us anything extra?

 

Edited 11 February , 2022 by charlie962

[Matmu]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I sort of covered that in my first reply to OP ?

 

FindmyPast records three births with father Frey and mother Ginley. Last one 1923. Do birth certificates tell us anything extra?

 

That's knocked me for six Charlie! I've never seen the third child info before.  I can't find any more info on them, is there anything else on there please? Thanks yet again!

[Matmu]

4 hours ago, QUEX said:

Post peace treaty - from the Armistice until then the occupying military effectively acted as the government in their zones.  See

Inter-Allied Rhineland High Commission - Wikipedia

I can confidently say Frey did not go to IARHC - I have the staff lists.  

Thank you

[JMB1943]

5 hours ago, Matmu said:

Oops sorry!

OK thanks, I could look for death registration in germany perhaps

Matthew,

This is truly an interesting tale.

I have never been to either the western Cape or to the fair city of Liverpool, but given the stereotypes [ (warm, sunny rural) and (cold, wet, grimy)] respectively, and the unemployment situation in the UK he may have chosen to return to his birthplace.  His father was a builder, and he did not leave until he was 27 so may have had a happy life there, with relatives still there only a dozen years later.

His daughter Frances M. Frey had her birth registered in Q1 ( Jan. 1st - March 31st) 1923, from FreeBMD.

So the actual d.o.b. could be anywhere from, say Dec. 25, 1922 to March 31. Date of conception is then in the range March/April 1922 to June/July 1922.

Frances’ birth certificate would be an interesting read….was JKR Frey the registrant?

Regards,

JMB

 

Edited 11 February , 2022 by JMB1943
typo

[Matmu]

7 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Matthew,

This is truly an interesting tale.

I have never been to either the western Cape or to the fair city of Liverpool, but given the stereotypes [ (warm, sunny rural) and (cold, wet, grimy)] respectively, and the unemployment situation in the UK he may have chosen to return to his birthplace.  His father was a builder, and he did not leave until he was 27 so may have had a happy life there, with relatives still there only a dozen years later.

His daughter Frances M. Frey had her birth registered in Q1 ( Jan. 1st - March 31st) 1923, from FreeBMD.

So the actual d.o.b. could be anywhere from, say Dec. 25, 1922 to March 31. Date of conception is then in the range March/April 1922 to June/July 1922.

Frances’ birth certificate would be an interesting read….was JKR Frey the registrant?

Regards,

JMB

 

Hello JMB,

it certainly is! Although I came on here to find out about JKR Frey’s military past interesting facts from his private life is being uncovered too  

I will order the birth certificate to have a look. I did find out a few more snippets. Frances M Frey was Frances Main Frey. Main being the the alternative surname on her mother’s death cert. So the father may be in question. Sadly I also found a death cert for 1925 for Frances Main, presumably the same child. 

I had the same though and have checked for anything leading back to the cape but no luck so far. Maybe the horrors of war were enough push him to leave his family of 3 mall children under 8 and try to find peace of mind elsewhere. I hope to find out more  

Thank you for you ideas. 

 

[corisande]

34 minutes ago, Matmu said:

Maybe the horrors of war were enough push him to leave his family

The leaving of a family was relatively common. But I have not come across a study of the "problem"

I have researched the lives of literally thousands of soldiers who joined the Royal Irish Constabulary and over 10%  abandoned their wives at that time or soon after. But that is not necessarily a representative figure as joining the RIC probably attracted men who wanted to get away from their family in the first place

So overall I have no idea what the figure was

40 minutes ago, Matmu said:

Frances Main Frey. Main being the the alternative surname on her mother’s death cert. So the father may be in question.

That is interesting. If a woman was married, she could register any birth with her husband as the father. He did not have to be at the Registrar to do that. So it is impossible to tell who the father really was. But it does look very likely that a Mr Main was the father and that she was living with him as his "wife" when she died. It does point to Main (rather than Cain) being the chap involved. By registering the child as her husband's it avoided the stigma of illegitimacy for the child

UK death certs do not tell you very much, but here the death cert for little Frances Main, might yield where she was living and who registered the death

[charlie962]

51 minutes ago, Matmu said:

Although I came on here to find out about JKR Frey’s military past interesting facts from his private life is being uncovered too  

But that is what makes the whole man.

[Matmu]

5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

But that is what makes the whole man.

Very true, it was just unexpected. 

7 minutes ago, corisande said:

The leaving of a family was relatively common. But I have not come across a study of the "problem"

I have researched the lives of literally thousands of soldiers who joined the Royal Irish Constabulary and over 10%  abandoned their wives at that time or soon after. But that is not necessarily a representative figure as joining the RIC probably attracted men who wanted to get away from their family in the first place

So overall I have no idea what the figure was

That is interesting. If a woman was married, she could register any birth with her husband as the father. He did not have to be at the Registrar to do that. So it is impossible to tell who the father really was. But it does look very likely that a Mr Main was the father and that she was living with him as his "wife" when she died. It does point to Main (rather than Cain) being the chap involved. By registering the child as her husband's it avoided the stigma of illegitimacy for the child

UK death certs do not tell you very much, but here the death cert for little Frances Main, might yield where she was living and who registered the death

I’ll have to order that too now!

Edited 12 February , 2022 by Matmu

[charlie962]

Another possible certificate..

There was a birth registered Liverpool q1 1925 of Violet Main, mother's maiden name Ginley! Since Jane did not die till 1926, is this perhaps her?

There is also a 5 month old child Violet Main  buried Allerton Cmty 19/8/25.

Charlie 

These could always be in- laws?

 

Edited 12 February , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

A Joseph Main married a Jennie Ginley Q3 1923, Liverpool.

 

Edit

The only Joseph Main I could readily find was born 1901 but seems to have married an Elizabeth Christie in 1923 and they are both on 1939 Register.

Edited 12 February , 2022 by charlie962

[Matmu]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

A Joseph Main married a Jennie Ginley Q3 1923, Liverpool.

We followed the same lines! I saw Jennie and wondered if she adapted her name a bit?!

[charlie962]

There are trees on Ancestry for Joseph, born 1901. Most show wife Christie but one showed Ginley. Worth trawling through for hints?

7 minutes ago, Matmu said:

We followed the same lines! I saw Jennie and wondered if she adapted her name a bit?!

All seems too coincidental.

[corisande]

There is an extensive Ancestry tree for her - click which includes all 3 children but no mention of Joseph Main

It also gives her full name as Mary Jane Gorman Hunter Ginley

Edited 12 February , 2022 by corisande

[Matmu]

11 minutes ago, corisande said:

There is an extensive Ancestry tree for her - click which includes all 3 children but no mention of Joseph Main

It also gives her full name as Mary Jane Gorman Hunter Ginley

Yes that mat be my tree! I couldn’t see aJennie though. 

[corisande]

6 minutes ago, Matmu said:

I couldn’t see a Jennie though. 

It does have Frances Main Frey 1923 - 1925 though

13 hours ago, Matmu said:

That's knocked me for six Charlie! I've never seen the third child info before.

I am confused now if it is your tree

[charlie962]

Perhaps it is being updated as we go along?

[corisande]

Owner has not signed on for over  1 month

[charlie962]

Oh!

[Matmu]

50 minutes ago, corisande said:

It does have Frances Main Frey 1923 - 1925 though

I am confused now if it is your tree

Not my tree then!