corisande Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 Yes , ran out of steam at this point. If he were to have got British nationality, then I would have thought that they should be at British Nat Archives. But I can find nothing there to confirm that. Nor can I get anything in London Gazette It is clearly made difficult as both John/Johan/Johann and Frey/Fry need covered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 7 minutes ago, Allan1892 said: I have been trying to find his death but have drawn a blank. A son was born in 1919, bearing this in mind I searched civil death registrations using every permutation of his given names but nothing found. My search first took me up to the 1933 marriage where he was shown as the father of the bride and as a soldier, deceased. I then carried on searching up to 1975 but again, nothing. As he had a son born in 1919, could he have remained in the army after WW1? I also searched the 1921 Census but he was no where to be found, again pointing to him possibly being still in the army. His wife, Mary Jane (also known as Jane) died in June 1926 and was buried on the 25th June at Ford Cemetery, Liverpool. Her entry in the civil death registrations show her as Mary J Frey (West Derby district, volume 8b, page 668). Now here comes a possible twist in the search for information -- there are two Catholic burial registers available online, both for the same time period 1813 to 1985 -- both registers record her burial -- one register shows her as 'Mary Jane Frey or Main; 147a Mill Road, age 32' the other register shows her as 'Mary Frey (or Cain) 147a Mill Road, age 32' The plot thickens -- did John / Johann desert Mary Jane? or did she desert him for a Mr Main / Cain? Yes, very strange. I saw that about my great grandma. The address was a workhouse in Liverpool. He did have a son also called Kasper Rudolph but he died in 1941. The brother of my grandma. I also checked the census for 1921 but was disappointed not to find him. The death is the biggest mystery for me. That there is no record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 11 minutes ago, corisande said: Yes , ran out of steam at this point. If he were to have got British nationality, then I would have thought that they should be at British Nat Archives. But I can find nothing there to confirm that. Nor can I get anything in London Gazette It is clearly made difficult as both John/Johan/Johann and Frey/Fry need covered Yes, the names complicate things and from his signature I think he was known as Rudolph! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUEX Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 1 hour ago, charlie962 said: I crib this extract from one of Corisande's articles but it may not be entirely appropriate for Frey ? "The Royal fusiliers in the great war" O'Neill Its description was " 10th Battalion Royal Fusiliers or Intelligence B," abbreviated I (b). It seems, like Topsy, to have just " growed." The first nucleus was provided by a small body of men from Scotland Yard especially selected for their knowledge of French and German. It performed mysterious and wonderful things, such as forming the buffer state between a colonel and a babel of tongues. This representative of I (b), a professor of languages, had to explain any lapses from discipline to the colonel, and any punishments inflicted on behalf of discipline to the recruits who were possessed of the gift of tongues. The latter appears to have been the more wearing task, though only by a shade. In France their work consisted in the detection of German agents. Working generally in civilian clothes, the small nucleus expanded into a numerous body of officers and men, recruited for their knowledge of languages, from various units. In civil life these men represented the oddest mixture of classes. There were some of those mere idlers who pick up a variety of languages from their penchant for travel. One was a travelling showman of Russian bears, who piloted performing bears from the extreme north to the southernmost point of Europe. Another was an Anglo-Armenian sergeant, born in France and educated in Czecho-Slovakia and Italy. Another was a strange cross of Aberdeen and Naples. This aggregation of strange types was at length placed for administrative purposes in one unit, the ioth (b) Royal Fusiliers. Beginning in France, where their counter- espionage work did much to make our intelligence work almost invariably superior to that of the enemy, I (b) gradually spread to Italy, Salonika, the East, and, finally, to Russia. That is not strictly accurate. I(b) was a section of the intelligence staff. It's responsibilities were initially everything that wasn't intelligence analysis - so when the BEF deployed in Aug 1914 GHQ had I(a) to do analysis and I(b) covering everything else plus, IIRC, I(c) responsible for 'maps'. As things evolved the intelligence staff at GHQ BEF spawned additional I(*)s and I(b) increasingly focused on espionage and counter-espionage. There were ultimately I(b)s at other GHQs and, in the BEF, at Army level and on the Lines of Communication. As for the Int Corps - it would be more accurate in the FFW to speak of 'intelligence corps' plural. The BEF Int Corps spawned an offshoot in Italy and a successor in BAOR - this can be regarded as one intelligence corps, containing both officers and ORs. In Salonika, Egypt and post-war Turkey the respective intelligence corps seem to have been officer only, and somewhat differently managed. Now to the blessed subject of the Int Corps and the Royal Fusiliers. Between Aug and Dec 1914 c.60 individuals were enlisted as ORs for the BEF's Int Corps. These were badged and numbered R Fus. Despite talk of 'cover', etc my own belief is that the real driver was that if a man is a soldier you have to issue him a khaki suit and boots, you have to pay him, etc, etc. and that Hounslow was a regular infantry depot close to Whitehall. The involvement of R Fus officers in the early days of the BEF's intelligence corps may have been a factor, but that needs unpacking. There is no reference to 10/R Fus in the few surviving papers for these men - indeed some had deployed before 10/R Fus was raised. Thereafter most ORs in the BEF Int Corps were attached from units in the BEF and remained on the books of their parent regiments - a very few were directly enlisted into the R Fus. The majority of these ORs were employed on counter intelligence duties, port security, etc and were referred to as 'Intelligence Police'. They worked closely with the military police and with the French authorities. Although it might sound glamorous it was mostly a matter of passes and permits. There may also have been men in units designated 'intelligence police' for specific periods with slightly different duties but that's still a bit obscure. In spring 1918 the BEF's Int Corp was organised into companies - one at GHQ, one on the LoC, and one in each Army. In the wake of this all ORs serving as intelligence police were transferred to the R Fus and notionally posted to 10/R Fus - this is, as far as I know, the first documented connection between Int Corps and 10/R Fus. When the BEF occupied part of Germany it needed intelligence police and, rather than French speakers, it needed German speakers in this role. That is why chaps like Frey, a German speaking intercept operator, transfer to the R Fus - for service in the BAOR Int Corps. And he's not on the 1921 census return for Int Corps BAOR I have seen no contemporary reference to 10(b)/R Fus - as far as I know the term first appears on the regiment's memorial in High Holburn. I am prepared to gift a bottle of single malt to anyone who can point me to a contemporary documentary source that shows a connection between Int Corps and 10/R Fus before April 1918, and another to anyone who can point me to a contemporary documentary source that shows a connection between Int Corps and 10(b)/R Fus prior to the Armistice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 I know the Intelligence bit is more exciting, but backtracking for a moment to WW1 and the KLR. Cpl J K Frey 12640 of the KLR was reported wounded in the Daily Casualty List of 21/12/1916. Actual wounding is typically a month before the newspaper published date and there is no indication whether it is light or serious. There was the Battle of the Ancre in which 1KLR participated 12-16/11/16 and I suspect it was then he was wounded. The Bn suffered 255 killed, wounded and missing. It could be subsequent to this that he was regraded and found work out of the front line? War Diary for 1916 is here and is free to download if you register. click here or you can see it on Ancestry here. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, QUEX said: That is not strictly accurate. I am not surprised. Thank you for that excellent, informed detail. I will not, I think, be eligible for the single malt! Charlie Edited 11 February , 2022 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUEX Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 7 minutes ago, charlie962 said: I am not surprised. Thank you for that excellent, informed detail. I will not, I think, be eligible for the single malt! Charlie Charlie, a couple of years ago I would have bought into much of the myth, but when you actually press the archives it doesn't stand up. And who knows what you may stumble across ... Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 I should add that it doesn't mean I won't look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 1 hour ago, Allan1892 said: The plot thickens -- did John / Johann desert Mary Jane? or did she desert him for a Mr Main / Cain? Plus the fact that she died in the Workhouse, as Matmu says, that address is the Workhouse Main or Cain may have been just an alias she used on enter to the Workhouse It is looking increasing likely that John/Johan Frey/Fry deserted her and disappeared to ?? Problem is that he could have either stayed in UK - in which case he ought to have appeared in 1939 register in some form, or as a soldier in WW2. or he shipped out, in which case he should be on the (not always complete) shipping records Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 I'm looking at near numbers to estimate his transfer dates: 1) re his trf tor RE. That number 251769 was issued between end of April 1917 (eg 251720 issued 29/4) and early July 1917 (eg 251780 issued 2/7) Quite a few signallers in that lot. Compulsory transfers from various infantry regiments, 'for the benefit of the service'. 2) re his trf to the RF. GS/128817. There are no surviving service records available on FMP for the range GS/1288xx. Nor GS/1287xx nor GS/1289xx But lots of MICs?? Edit- but if I search without the prefix I find records of interest- see update below There are a high number of distinctly 'foreign' names amongst this GS/1288xx range only- (MICs survive, of course) So I cannot date the transfer to RFusiliers. Edit- see update below If I search for G rather than GS I have two bits of paper. A service record for G/128817 Robert Liddell, a longstanding RE signaller. Here courtesy FindmyPast is an extract of his trf to 10th RFusiliers. And here out of interest is an extract of BAOR HQ PartII orders of March 1920, again courtesy FindmyPast: Anyway I would suggest that Frey's transfer to the Royal Fusiliers was quite possibly same date as Liddell, ie postwar 16/4/19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 4 hours ago, charlie962 said: 10th Bn Royal Fusiliers were used in part as the personnel admin for certain Intelligence Corps activities. With language skills and signals experience it doesn't mean he was a spy but probably a useful part of the monitoring system. 1 (b) was used for this, I think but 1 (c)? @corisande and @Keith_history_buff and others have some ideas on this, perhaps? charlie All I can comment is that it is interesting that he appears to be on an Intelligence Corps roll for the 1914-15 Star. When I looked into soldiers of the South Wales Borderers who entered a theatre of war at a given date that made them eligible for the 1914-15 Star, not every man was on that regiment's roll. In a lot of instances, their original regimental service number and unit were recorded on a page for the roll of the regiment in which they were serving at that time. One such example is Algernon Bennett, formerly 9741 South Wales Borderers who is on the 1914-15 Star roll for the Royal Engineers. I don't have access to Ancestry, but it does look like Frey is on the medal roll with archive reference WO 329/2428 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 2 hours ago, charlie962 said: I know the Intelligence bit is more exciting, but backtracking for a moment to WW1 and the KLR. Cpl J K Frey 12640 of the KLR was reported wounded in the Daily Casualty List of 21/12/1916. Actual wounding is typically a month before the newspaper published date and there is no indication whether it is light or serious. There was the Battle of the Ancre in which 1KLR participated 12-16/11/16 and I suspect it was then he was wounded. The Bn suffered 255 killed, wounded and missing. It could be subsequent to this that he was regraded and found work out of the front line? War Diary for 1916 is here and is free to download if you register. click here or you can see it on Ancestry here. Charlie Oh that's great thanks. I'll have a look at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 8 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: All I can comment is that it is interesting that he appears to be on an Intelligence Corps roll for the 1914-15 Star. When I looked into soldiers of the South Wales Borderers who entered a theatre of war at a given date that made them eligible for the 1914-15 Star, not every man was on that regiment's roll. In a lot of instances, their original regimental service number and unit were recorded on a page for the roll of the regiment in which they were serving at that time. One such example is Algernon Bennett, formerly 9741 South Wales Borderers who is on the 1914-15 Star roll for the Royal Engineers. I don't have access to Ancestry, but it does look like Frey is on the medal roll with archive reference WO 329/2428 Hi Keith, I'm not sure what that means exactly. Why, is that unusual? 49 minutes ago, charlie962 said: I'm looking at near numbers to estimate his transfer dates: 1) re his trf tor RE. That number 251769 was issued between end of April 1917 (eg 251720 issued 29/4) and early July 1917 (eg 251780 issued 2/7) Quite a few signallers in that lot. Compulsory transfers from various infantry regiments, 'for the benefit of the service'. 2) re his trf to the RF. GS/128817. There are no surviving service records available on FMP for the range GS/1288xx. Nor GS/1287xx nor GS/1289xx But lots of MICs?? Edit- but if I search without the prefix I find records of interest- see update below There are a high number of distinctly 'foreign' names amongst this GS/1288xx range only- (MICs survive, of course) So I cannot date the transfer to RFusiliers. Edit- see update below If I search for G rather than GS I have two bits of paper. A service record for G/128817 Robert Liddell, a longstanding RE signaller. Here courtesy FindmyPast is an extract of his trf to 10th RFusiliers. And here out of interest is an extract of BAOR HQ PartII orders of March 1920, again courtesy FindmyPast: Anyway I would suggest that Frey's transfer to the Royal Fusiliers was quite possibly same date as Liddell, ie postwar 16/4/19 Thanks for that info Charlie, the info is building up now! Some of it is a bit beyond my knowledge in the field though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 2 hours ago, charlie962 said: I know the Intelligence bit is more exciting, but backtracking for a moment to WW1 and the KLR. Cpl J K Frey 12640 of the KLR was reported wounded in the Daily Casualty List of 21/12/1916. Actual wounding is typically a month before the newspaper published date and there is no indication whether it is light or serious. There was the Battle of the Ancre in which 1KLR participated 12-16/11/16 and I suspect it was then he was wounded. The Bn suffered 255 killed, wounded and missing. It could be subsequent to this that he was regraded and found work out of the front line? War Diary for 1916 is here and is free to download if you register. click here or you can see it on Ancestry here. Charlie Thanks again Charlie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 2 hours ago, QUEX said: And he's not on the 1921 census return for Int Corps BAOR Thanks for the info. Some a bit too 'technical' for me to grasp, but what I understood was interesting. What do you think it means by him not being on the 1921 census please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 Matthew, As you are aware most of the Army Service records for WW1 were destroyed in an air raid WW2. Thus to ascertain certain info we can look at men who joined or were transferred at about the same time, who are fortunate to have surviving records. Because the service numbers were issued when they joined a regiment or changed regiment, the near service numbers are the key to a search. There are various methods but there are also limitations as to what can be deduced. Generally it is only a snapshot of a particular moment rather than two men with near numbers subsequently following the same career path. Have you looked at the long long trail ? See top left of screen. It has a wealth of info and explanations on soldiers lives, terminology and army structures. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUEX Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 1 hour ago, charlie962 said: I'm looking at near numbers to estimate his transfer dates: 1) re his trf tor RE. That number 251769 was issued between end of April 1917 (eg 251720 issued 29/4) and early July 1917 (eg 251780 issued 2/7) Quite a few signallers in that lot. Compulsory transfers from various infantry regiments, 'for the benefit of the service'. 2) re his trf to the RF. GS/128817. There are no surviving service records available on FMP for the range GS/1288xx. Nor GS/1287xx nor GS/1289xx But lots of MICs?? Edit- but if I search without the prefix I find records of interest- see update below There are a high number of distinctly 'foreign' names amongst this GS/1288xx range only- (MICs survive, of course) So I cannot date the transfer to RFusiliers. Edit- see update below If I search for G rather than GS I have two bits of paper. A service record for G/128817 Robert Liddell, a longstanding RE signaller. Here courtesy FindmyPast is an extract of his trf to 10th RFusiliers. And here out of interest is an extract of BAOR HQ PartII orders of March 1920, again courtesy FindmyPast: Anyway I would suggest that Frey's transfer to the Royal Fusiliers was quite possibly same date as Liddell, ie postwar 16/4/19 Charlie, that's about right - these are German speakers for BAOR, some out of the Interpreter Operator stable, some from elsewhere - and quite a number stay on after discharge in the Rhineland High Commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 6 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Matthew, As you are aware most of the Army Service records for WW1 were destroyed in an air raid WW2. Thus to ascertain certain info we can look at men who joined or were transferred at about the same time, who are fortunate to have surviving records. Because the service numbers were issued when they joined a regiment or changed regiment, the near service numbers are the key to a search. There are various methods but there are also limitations as to what can be deduced. Generally it is only a snapshot of a particular moment rather than two men with near numbers subsequently following the same career path. Have you looked at the long long trail ? See top left of screen. It has a wealth of info and explanations on soldiers lives, terminology and army structures. Charlie Thanks Charlie, I get it now, ok, that's logical. No not tried Long, Long trail, will have a look this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUEX Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 11 minutes ago, Matmu said: Thanks for the info. Some a bit too 'technical' for me to grasp, but what I understood was interesting. What do you think it means by him not being on the 1921 census please? All I can say with total confidence was that he was not present in BAOR when the census return was compiled - but I would suspect by this time he had left the army. The intelligence presence in BAOR was initally huge, but by 1921 had considerably reduced. If he doesn't appear elsewhere on the 1921 census it suggests he is somewhere that is not enumerated by the census. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 5 minutes ago, QUEX said: Charlie, that's about right - these are German speakers for BAOR, some out of the Interpreter Operator stable, some from elsewhere - and quite a number stay on after discharge in the Rhineland High Commission. That might be of use then. What is the Rhineland High Commission? Are we talking post-armistice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 1 minute ago, Matmu said: will have a look this weekend. leave yourself plenty of time ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 Just now, Matmu said: That might be of use then. What is the Rhineland High Commission? Are we talking post-armistice? Anwsered my own question with google, sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matmu Posted 11 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2022 4 minutes ago, QUEX said: All I can say with total confidence was that he was not present in BAOR when the census return was compiled - but I would suspect by this time he had left the army. The intelligence presence in BAOR was initally huge, but by 1921 had considerably reduced. If he doesn't appear elsewhere on the 1921 census it suggests he is somewhere that is not enumerated by the census. OK thanks Quex. Any theories?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 4 minutes ago, Matmu said: Hi Keith, I'm not sure what that means exactly. Why, is that unusual? Thanks for that info Charlie, the info is building up now! Some of it is a bit beyond my knowledge in the field though! Hi Matmu, This has no direct bearing on you researching your paternal grandfather, it is a comment about how one's latter regiment could record details about a soldier's first regiment. The fact that he is on roll INTELL 1C, and Bennett is on roll RE 27C are a quirk of recording information on medal rolls. In the same manner that British soldiers with linguistic skills were in the 10th (Intelligence) battalion of the Royal Fusiliers, the French similarly put such men in the 19th squadron of train and transportation. If your grandfather enlisted after the declaration of war with the Liverpool Regiment under Regular terms of service, and was issued a service number of 12640, this would tie in with Paul Nixon's research, I thinkhttps://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/07/kings-liverpool-regiment-1st-2nd.html I don't know what the number sequence would be for those enlisting in the Liverpool Regiment under Special Reserve terms of service. Although the "3/" prefix implies Special Reserve, it could apply to a wounded soldier who was recuperating with the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion when the unique prefix order came out in 1915. (This will go over your head, I do not doubt it.) I don't have instant access to Ancestry, so cannot see what it states on the BWM & VM medal roll against his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUEX Posted 11 February , 2022 Share Posted 11 February , 2022 1 minute ago, Matmu said: That might be of use then. What is the Rhineland High Commission? Are we talking post-armistice? Post peace treaty - from the Armistice until then the occupying military effectively acted as the government in their zones. See Inter-Allied Rhineland High Commission - Wikipedia I can confidently say Frey did not go to IARHC - I have the staff lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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