John K R Frey, MI 1c Intelligence

[Matmu]

Hi All, 

My first time on here, I'm Matthew and I'm trying to find out information for my Dad, who is now 86, about a grandad that he never knew.

I have very little info and there isn't even photo of him, and I have no idea when or how he died, if he left the army or what he did after WW1, but he is marked as deceased on my grandparent's marriage certificate in 1933. So any information would be most welcome.

 

His name was Johann Kasper Rudolf FREY.  Born in South Africa in 1885 to a Swiss father, and was presumably a german speaker.  He came to fight for the British Army in 1914.  From what I can find he started with the King's Liverpool Regiment, then moved to XVII corps of the Royal Engineers as an Interpreter Operator, then transferred to The Royal Fusiliers Intelligence corps.  His medal roll index card says Intelligence 1C, but I can't find what that means.

 

He appears in army records as John K R Frey and also JPR Frey and appears with the service numbers 12640, 3/12640, G/128815 and GS/128815.

 

Thank you all in advance

[charlie962]

Welcome to the forum.

His medal Roll for the 14/15 star is under JPR Frey. The roll was submitted by the 10th Bn Royal Fusiliers (intelligence corps) (his last unit) but shows he first went to France with 1st KLR on 31/5/15. 

At some point he will have transferred to the RE and this date can be ascertained by looking for surviving records of near RE numbered men. A similar excercise can e performed with his RF number.

His RE appointment shows on the medal roll for the BWM and VM. He was RCHQ Signal Company.

Charlie

Edited 11 February , 2022 by charlie962

[Matmu]

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

Welcome to the forum.

His medal Roll for the 14/15 star is under JPR Frey. The roll was submitted by the 10th Bn Royal Fusiliers (intelligence corps) (his last unit) but shows he first went to France with 1st KLR on 31/5/15. At some point he will have transferred to the RE and this date can be ascertained by looking for surviving records of near RE numbered men. A similar excercise can e performed with his RF number.

Charlie

Hi Charlie,  I'll start there then, Thank you

[Allan1892]

I have found who he married if you are interested.

[charlie962]

RCHQ probably stood for R Corps HeadQuarters and means 17 Corps.

Edit = XVII Corps you have already noted!

Edited 11 February , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Matthew, I edited my first post since you saw it to add a bit about RE.

[Matmu]

29 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Matthew, I edited my first post since you saw it to add a bit about RE.

Great thanks Charlie. Sorry not sure for the acronyms BWM and VM. 

38 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

I have found who he married if you are interested.

Hi Allan, yes please. I have a vague idea. 

Thanks

[Allan1892]

Hi Matthew - please see attached image of marriage certificate (courtesy of Ancestry, Liverpool Church of England, Marriages and Banns). Link below if you have access to Ancestry (a subscription site)

Ancestry.co.uk - Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935

15 minutes ago, Matmu said:

Great thanks Charlie. Sorry not sure for the acronyms BWM and VM. 

BWM = British War Medal

VM = Victory Medal

[charlie962]

Sorry about acronyms.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Matmu said:

His medal roll index card says Intelligence 1C

Intell/1C = the reference to the Medal Roll for his 1914-15 Star

M

Edited 11 February , 2022 by Matlock1418

[Matmu]

13 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Hi Matthew - please see attached image of marriage certificate (courtesy of Ancestry, Liverpool Church of England, Marriages and Banns). Link below if you have access to Ancestry (a subscription site)

Ancestry.co.uk - Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935

BWM = British War Medal

VM = Victory Medal

Thanks Allan. That’s great!

8 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Sorry about acronyms.

Ha ha. No problems. I’m just a beginner, I’ll get there!

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Intell/1C = the reference to the Medal Roll for his 1914-15 Star

M

Yes. I wondered what that meant. Intelligence corp but the 1c is a mystery. 

[charlie962]

10th Bn Royal Fusiliers were used in part as the personnel admin for certain Intelligence Corps activities. With language skills and signals experience it doesn't mean he was a spy but probably a useful part of the monitoring system.

1 (b) was used for this, I think but 1 (c)?

@corisande and @Keith_history_buff and others have some ideas on this, perhaps?

charlie

 

Edited 11 February , 2022 by charlie962

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, Matmu said:

the 1c is a mystery. 

It's typically part of the reference/a 'page number' if you like on an Intell Medal Roll [See similarly the BWM & VM Medal Roll references above] - it is not a unit [so far as I know!]

M

Edited 11 February , 2022 by Matlock1418
addit

[charlie962]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

it is not a unit

1 b was a sub-unit but as you say 1 c might just be roll id.

[charlie962]

I crib this extract from one of Corisande's articles but it may not be entirely appropriate for Frey ?

"The Royal fusiliers in the great war" O'Neill

Its description was " 10th Battalion Royal Fusiliers or Intelligence B," abbreviated I (b). It seems, like Topsy, to have just " growed." The first nucleus was provided by a small body of men from Scotland Yard especially selected for their knowledge of French and German. It performed mysterious and wonderful things, such as forming the buffer state between a colonel and a babel of tongues. This representative of I (b), a professor of languages, had to explain any lapses from discipline to the colonel, and any punishments inflicted on behalf of discipline to the recruits who were possessed of the gift of tongues. The latter appears to have been the more wearing task, though only by a shade. In France their work consisted in the detection of German agents. Working generally in civilian clothes, the small nucleus expanded into a numerous body of officers and men, recruited for their knowledge of languages, from various units. In civil life these men represented the oddest mixture of classes. There were some of those mere idlers who pick up a variety of languages from their penchant for travel. One was a travelling showman of Russian bears, who piloted performing bears from the extreme north to the southernmost point of Europe. Another was an Anglo-Armenian sergeant, born in France and educated in Czecho-Slovakia and Italy. Another was a strange cross of Aberdeen and Naples. This aggregation of strange types was at length placed for administrative purposes in one unit, the ioth (b) Royal Fusiliers. Beginning in France, where their counter- espionage work did much to make our intelligence work almost invariably superior to that of the enemy, I (b) gradually spread to Italy, Salonika, the East, and, finally, to Russia.

[Matmu]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I crib this extract from one of Corisande's articles but it may not be entirely appropriate for Frey ?

"The Royal fusiliers in the great war" O'Neill

Its description was " 10th Battalion Royal Fusiliers or Intelligence B," abbreviated I (b). It seems, like Topsy, to have just " growed." The first nucleus was provided by a small body of men from Scotland Yard especially selected for their knowledge of French and German. It performed mysterious and wonderful things, such as forming the buffer state between a colonel and a babel of tongues. This representative of I (b), a professor of languages, had to explain any lapses from discipline to the colonel, and any punishments inflicted on behalf of discipline to the recruits who were possessed of the gift of tongues. The latter appears to have been the more wearing task, though only by a shade. In France their work consisted in the detection of German agents. Working generally in civilian clothes, the small nucleus expanded into a numerous body of officers and men, recruited for their knowledge of languages, from various units. In civil life these men represented the oddest mixture of classes. There were some of those mere idlers who pick up a variety of languages from their penchant for travel. One was a travelling showman of Russian bears, who piloted performing bears from the extreme north to the southernmost point of Europe. Another was an Anglo-Armenian sergeant, born in France and educated in Czecho-Slovakia and Italy. Another was a strange cross of Aberdeen and Naples. This aggregation of strange types was at length placed for administrative purposes in one unit, the ioth (b) Royal Fusiliers. Beginning in France, where their counter- espionage work did much to make our intelligence work almost invariably superior to that of the enemy, I (b) gradually spread to Italy, Salonika, the East, and, finally, to Russia.

Thank you

[corisande]

12 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

the 1c is a mystery. 

Thanks Charlie

Have a look at. Its part of Military Intelligence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MI1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Intelligence_Service

I will try to get back to this later !

Edited 11 February , 2022 by corisande

[Matlock1418]

5 minutes ago, corisande said:

Its part of Military Intelligence

Well, well - you learn something new everyday on GWF. Thanks.

Not at all typical to put that level of detail in the Medal Roll box though - and in clear = not very Secret Service to do so!

M

[corisande]

You would be dismayed by how the British handled intelligence for most of the war. Details were announced in LG, and in Ireland the lads could spot them as they got off the ferry in Dublin

[Matmu]

20 minutes ago, corisande said:

Thanks Charlie

Have a look at. Its part of Military Intelligence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MI1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Intelligence_Service

I will try to get back to this later !

Wow, that's interesting.  So he was part of the secret intelligence service?

[corisande]

Here is another bit of odd information for you

He passed through  Antwerp emigration police at some point between 1901 and 1915 - click

From what you have said, I assume he was born Worcester, South Africa, and not Worcester UK

 

Edited 11 February , 2022 by corisande

[Matmu]

7 minutes ago, corisande said:

Here is another bit of odd information for you

He was working for the Antwerp emigration police at some point between 1901 and 1915 - click

From what you have said, I assume he was born Worcester, South Africa, and not Worcester UK

 

Yes thats right, Worcester, Western Cape, South Africa.

I saw that document too, but it refers to another document in the same collection which is written in Dutch, but it seems to be that he came through Antwerp on his way to the UK in 1912, he got his british naturalisation (if that is the right word) there at the British consulate, in order to go to the UK.  From what I could understand!

Thank you 

[corisande]

OK , found the second page, which shows that he arrived in Antwerp on 1 Jun 1912

With a bit of luck someone on the forum can translate to see if there is anything of interest hidden there.

[Matmu]

16 minutes ago, corisande said:

OK , found the second page, which shows that he arrived in Antwerp on 1 Jun 1912

With a bit of luck someone on the forum can translate to see if there is anything of interest hidden there.

Yes that’s the one! From what I could translate (box 10) he got his British nationality papers at the British Embassy there on 15th June 1912. 

[Allan1892]

I have been trying to find his death but have drawn a blank.

A son was born in 1919, bearing this in mind I searched civil death registrations using every permutation of his given names but nothing found. My search first took me up to the 1933 marriage where he was shown as the father of the bride and as a soldier, deceased. I then carried on searching up to 1975 but again, nothing. As he had a son born in 1919, could he have remained in the army after WW1?

I also searched the 1921 Census but he was no where to be found, again pointing to him possibly being still in the army.

His wife, Mary Jane (also known as Jane) died in June 1926 and was buried on the 25th June at Ford Cemetery, Liverpool. Her entry in the civil death registrations show her as Mary J Frey (West Derby district, volume 8b, page 668). Now here comes a possible twist in the search for information -- there are two Catholic burial registers available online, both for the same time period 1813 to 1985 -- both registers record her burial -- one register shows her as 'Mary Jane Frey or Main; 147a Mill Road, age 32' the other register shows her as 'Mary Frey (or Cain) 147a Mill Road, age 32'

The plot thickens -- did John / Johann desert Mary Jane? or did she desert him for a Mr Main / Cain?