RoyalAce Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 He is my 2nd great-grandfather. I have some photos of him obviously in Cameronian uniform, and two others where he seems to my untrained eye as just in general issue kit. Born: Sep. 30th, 1893 in Haddington, North Berwickshire, Scotland His parents were William Miller and Elizabeth Hay Wilkie of 86 High Street, North Berwick, East Lothian, Scotland. His service number and battalion are unknown. From his 1918 photo in which I believe his epaulet pin has his battalion number it's sadly not readable. According to my grandmother he contracted malaria while serving, forcing him often during flareups later in life to seclude himself in a darkened room to rest. Possibly pointing to one of the battalions that fought at Gallipoli? I'm really just looking for any information at all about his service. I believe him to be a Pte. from his photos, but can you confirm? Is there anything about his uniform that tells you about what battalion he was with? Taken in 1914. Taken in 1915. Taken in 1918. This one's puzzling. He seems to be a Pte., yet is wearing an officer's tam o' shanter and an aiguillette? (although that might just be the sleeve seam). Could just be his dress uniform before mustering out as well. Taken in 1914 I believe? Henry is seated. It seems he's wearing he same jacket as the previous photograph but with different buttons. Also he's holding a different style bonnet. To my knowledge it's his brother, William Kidd Miller of the Royal Scots (Cpl., No. 3228, 3/6th Bn.), standing behind him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 5 minutes ago, RoyalAce said: His parents were William Miller and Elizabeth Hay Wilkie of 86 High Street, North Berwick, East Lothian, Scotland. Was his brother James Wilkie Miller ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) In the seated photo he has on his lap the glengarry of a Scottish lowland regiment and albeit looking at the cap badge from an oblique angle I think it’s the Royal Scots. He and his colleague/brother wear well polished general service buttons (GS), as per regulation, in that photo. In the very first photo you posted he still has the GS buttons but instead now wears the plain dark (‘rifle’) green glengarry of the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles) but without their black buttons as worn by all the regiments styled as Rifles. In both of these photos he’s wearing the simplified emergency jacket without expansion pleats on the chest pockets. In the next photo he is very clearly and smartly dressed in the full uniform and insignia of a typical Cameronian, complete with rifle green glengarry, cap badge, black shoulder title (SR - for Scottish Rifles) and black buttons. Finally there is a later war photo of him wearing the Tam-o-Shanter bonnet of all Scottish regiments used as a practical headdress for frontline wear when not using steel helmets. These were adopted universally from midwar through until the Armistice. In this photo he also wears the standard pattern jacket with expansion pleats on pockets and reinforcement patches on shoulders. The “aiguillette” is merely a lanyard issued to all soldiers with which to secure the issued clasp knife in the adjacent chest pocket. It seems to me that the initial service was with the Royal Scots but that at some point he was transferred to the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles). Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyalAce Posted 5 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2022 3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: Was his brother James Wilkie Miller ? Craig James Charles Miller. Born Nov. 21st, 1895. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) I believe that your man was in the 3rd Battalion of the Scottish Rifles, Private 15156. There is surviving paperwork on the subscription site, Find My Past. the image below (courtesy if Find My Past) is the first page. A quick read through shows that his father was called William. Edited 5 February , 2022 by Allan1892 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 I have attached images of his casualty form which shows details of where he was. (courtesy of Find My Past). I have also shown the link to his record just in case you have access to Find My Past. British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) From the LongLongTrail: “11th (Service) Battalion Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles). Formed at Hamilton in October 1914 as part of K3 and came under orders of 77th Brigade in 26th Division. Moved to Codford St Mary but by December 1914 was in billets in Bristol. Moved to Warminster in February 1915 and Sutton Veny in April. Landed at Boulogne on 20 September 1915 but sailed for Salonika in November 1915.“ Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 There is a pension card for him, image attached, courtesy of the Western Front Association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Allan1892 said: There is a pension card for him, image attached, courtesy of the Western Front Association. He seems to have been discharged from the 2nd Battalion (typically annotated as “Scottish Rifles” because of their different lineage to the 1st Battalion). I’m wondering if that suggests he was wounded or sick from 11th Battalion (Salonika notorious for endemic Malaria sickness especially) and then on regaining fitness was posted to the 2nd Battalion, with which he appears to have ended the war on active service. “2nd Battalion August 1914 : in Malta. Returned to England, landing at Southampton 22 September 1914. 22 September 1914 :came under orders of 23rd Brigade, 8th Division. 5 November 1914: landed at Le Havre.3 February 1918 : transferred to 59th Brigade in 20th (Light) Division.“ Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 3 minutes ago, Allan1892 said: There is a pension card for him, image attached, courtesy of the Western Front Association. His pension claim was unsuccessful under the application he made on discharge. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 27 minutes ago, Allan1892 said: I believe that your man was in the 3rd Battalion of the Scottish Rifles, Private 15156. There is surviving paperwork on the subscription site, Find My Past. the image below (courtesy if Find My Past) is the first page. A quick read through shows that his father was called William. 3rd (Special Reserve) Battalion would be his parent unit for records purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: 3rd (Special Reserve) Battalion would be his parent unit for records purposes. Thank you for explaining this to me. The notation of the 3rd Btn was on the cover sheet and also on the Statement As To Disability all other references in his paperwork refer to the 11th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 Henry was awarded the 1914-15 Star; the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. (image courtesy of Ancestry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Allan1892 said: Thank you for explaining this to me. The notation of the 3rd Btn was on the cover sheet and also on the Statement As To Disability all other references in his paperwork refer to the 11th. It’s because they were invariably the depot battalion and seldom strayed far from it (although they were intended for home defence too and in wartime had a war station away from the depot). Nonetheless, they were the home establishment administrative hub for both officers and men around which all other battalions of the regiment, less TF, orbited. If an officer or soldier was on long term sickness then the 3rd (SR) battalion administered them and most importantly kept track of where (in which medical facility) they were. In peacetime soldiers who completed their term of engagement returned to the depot battalion where they were de-kitted and processed for discharge. Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Allan1892 said: Henry was awarded the 1914-15 Star; the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. (image courtesy of Ancestry) This has been a rather good example of how a soldier might be enlisted and attested initially with one regiment, including having his photo taken, but then spend his entire wartime service with, and be discharged from, another regiment entirely. If his service record is one of those lost, then the details of the initial unit are often unknown unless some visual evidence is found as in this case. Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: This has been a rather good example of how a soldier might be enlisted and attested initially with one regiment, including having his photo taken, but then spend his entire wartime service with, and be discharged from, another regiment entirely. If his service record is one of those lost, then the details of the initial unit are often unknown unless some visual evidence is found as in this case. Maybe I missed something, but his records all show the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). I don't see any other Regiment shown on what I've looked at. Do you see some different Regiment? Maybe a 'senior moment'? I get them too... Edited 5 February , 2022 by Tom Lang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Tom Lang said: Maybe I missed something, but his records all show the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). I don't see any other Regiment shown on what I've looked at. Do you see some different Regiment? Maybe a 'senior moment'? I get them too... Tom if you read the initial response that I made in relation to the photographs that were attached to the opening post of this thread, you will see reference to a lowland regiment, possibly (in my opinion) the Royal Scots. It then seems that the same individual appears in the uniform of the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles), albeit initially without black buttons. He then appears again, chronologically later, in complete uniform and insignia of the same regiment. It seems then that he made a transition from a standard lowland regiment to the Cameronian’s, and that is what I was referring to in my last post. Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said: Tom if you read the initial response that I made in relation to the photographs that were attached to the opening post of this thread you will see reference to a lowland regiment, possibly (in my opinion) the Royal Scots. It then seems that the same individual appears in the uniform of the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles), albeit initially without black buttons. He then appears again, chronologically later, in complete uniform and insignia of the same regiment. It appears then that he made a transition from a standard lowland regiment to the Cameronian’s, and that is what I was referring to in my last post. Yes, I saw that, but 'studio' portraits were often in kit supplied by the studio. In the photo, I suspect that his brother gave him a uniform to wear for the purpose. Who would ever see this (and know the difference) 100+ years later? So I think the photo with his brother is a red herring. Just my 2p-worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Tom Lang said: Yes, I saw that, but 'studio' portraits were often in kit supplied by the studio. In the photo, I suspect that his brother gave him a uniform to wear for the purpose. Who would ever see this (and know the difference) 100+ years later? So I think the photo with his brother is a red herring. Just my 2p-worth. Thanks Tom. Personally I think the war was taken quite seriously by that generation and playing dress up in uniforms and cap badges to which there was no entitlement was rare. Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Thanks Tom. Personally I think the war was taken quite seriously by that generation and playing dress up in uniforms and cap badges to which there was no entitlement was rare. That is very true, but we have no evidence that he served with a different Regiment. Attached are snippets (from ancestry ($pit)) of his 1914-15 Star Roll and his VM and BWM Roll. These should show any different Regiments, but none are shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tom Lang said: That is very true, but we have no evidence that he served with a different Regiment. Attached are snippets (from ancestry ($pit)) of his 1914-15 Star Roll and his VM and BWM Roll. These should show any different Regiments, but none are shown. No they wouldn’t show on medal rolls very often because the processing application was done by the final regiment in which served. It’s been explained very many times in this forum that medal records relate to the unit served with overseas. In many cases other regiments were served with in Britain before going overseas, but unless the soldier’s service record has survived there is no written evidence. In many cases, however, family photos show the regimental insignia and dress of the regiment’s served with earlier. There’s nothing new about this, it’s referred to in many threads. Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: No they wouldn’t show on medal rolls very often because the processing application was done by the final regiment in which served. It’s been explained very many times in this forum that medal records relate to the unit served with overseas. In many cases other regiments were served with in Britain before going overseas, but unless the soldier’s service record has survived there is no written evidence. In many cases, however, family photos show the regimental insignia and dress of the regiment’s served with earlier. There’s nothing new about this, it’s referred to in many threads. Then maybe the path of his service can be deduced from the 'Statement as to Disability' and Casualty Form' posted above. His MIC, Medal Rolls & Pension Index Card, etc, all these documents refer to service with the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). So the documentation available shows no association with any other Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Tom Lang said: Then maybe the path of his service can be deduced from the 'Statement as to Disability' and Casualty Form' posted above. His MIC, Medal Rolls & Pension Index Card, etc, all these documents refer to service with the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). So the documentation available shows no association with any other Regiment. The pension and other details that you mention are all related to the service overseas, just as the medal records are. I’m a bit surprised you don’t know that Tom, in the sense that it’s a common topic in the many threads posted about individuals here in the forum. As previously mentioned, the only documents where service at home, prior to going overseas is routinely recorded, is in each soldier’s individual service record. As the vast majority of these were destroyed in WW2 bombing the details have very often been lost. If you won’t take my word for it please consult with some of the other posters here who focus on the genealogical audit trails. Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: The pension and other details that you mention are all related to the service overseas just as the medal records are. I’m a bit surprised you don’t know that Tom in the sense that it’s a common topic in the many threads posted about individuals. As previously mentioned the only documents where service at home, prior to going overseas is routinely recorded is in each soldier’s individual service record. As the vast majority of these were destroyed in WW2 bombing the details have very often been lost. If you won’t take my word for it please consult with some of the other posters here who focus on the genealogical audit trails. The details show that he enlisted on 16 Sep 1914 with the 11th Battalion Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). He was discharged on 1 March 1919 from the Depot, Hamilton, from the Cameronias (Scottish Rifles) - having contracted Malaria in Salonica, and transferred home through a series of military hospitals. Each of those events are on 'home' soil. We can agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Tom Lang said: The details show that he enlisted on 16 Sep 1914 with the 11th Battalion Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). He was discharged on 1 March 1919 from the Depot, Hamilton, from the Cameronias (Scottish Rifles) - having contracted Malaria in Salonica, and transferred home through a series of military hospitals. Each of those events are on 'home' soil. We can agree to disagree. I’m quite happy and open to reviewing what information there is Tom. Perhaps there’s some confusion relating to the photographs. The OP referred to the two seated brothers and both are wearing general service buttons with no shoulder titles discernible unfortunately. The brother seated has a Royal Scots glengarry clutched in one hand on his lap and I’ve taken it to be his, but later on he’s wearing Cameronian’s dress and that conundrum is exactly what the OP has been puzzled about. The OP also wasn’t able to quote a service number, a precise unit, or an enlistment date. Perhaps that entire scenario is wrong and he was already a Cameronian, albeit without yet having black buttons (there was a supply shortage in 1914) and merely holding his brother’s cap. A very odd thing for a soldier to do and begging the question where was his own cap, but I suppose it’s not impossible. I don’t have sight of any enlistment/attestation documents and you might therefore be correct, but the point I was trying to make about the details of service on the home establishment not always surviving, if service records have been destroyed, still stands and that is what I was endeavouring to explain in the light of your opening inquiry, and reference to “senior moments”. NB. You can only be sure of his enlistment details if you have seen his attestation document. Have you seen that? His enlistment date wouldn’t change, but the details of his unit would once he arrived overseas. Ergo his unit would be listed as the battalion he was serving with at the time the document was filled in, but the actual enlistment date might relate to an entirely different regiment that he first joined back at home. If his service record with his attestation record has been destroyed, then that detail is lost. As far as I can see so far we don’t have sight of that evidence? Reading his documents available so far the 16 September 1914 is annotated as “joins for duty” (i.e. with 11th battalion) so I’m not sure that it’s his actual enlistment date. Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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