paul g knowles Posted 4 February , 2022 Share Posted 4 February , 2022 Hello Forum, It has been some time since I last posted, but I need some help please. I'm trying to piece together the service history of a young officer in the 8th Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment, Captain L A F Ireland. I have been fortunate enough to purchase his service medals and awards and know that he was posted home to England (Battalion war diaries) in early February 1918 for 6 months duty. His MC is engraved: 31st July 1917 and 16th March 1918. The 31st July 1917 is I am assuming the Third Battle of Ypres, and the 16th March 1918 is the day he was awarded his Military Cross? I believe that their was an investiture at Buckingham Palace that day? Any information about Captain Ireland and the 8th Battalion would be very gratefully received. Many thanks Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 4 February , 2022 Share Posted 4 February , 2022 The LG entry is here The London Gazette Publication date: 28 December 1917 Supplement: 30450 Page: 39 Page 29 | Supplement 30450, 28 December 1917 | London Gazette | The Gazette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 4 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2022 5 hours ago, paul g knowles said: Hello Forum, It has been some time since I last posted, but I need some help please. I'm trying to piece together the service history of a young officer in the 8th Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment, Captain L A F Ireland. I have been fortunate enough to purchase his service medals and awards and know that he was posted home to England (Battalion war diaries) in early February 1918 for 6 months duty. His MC is engraved: 31st July 1917 and 16th March 1918. The 31st July 1917 is I am assuming the Third Battle of Ypres, and the 16th March 1918 is the day he was awarded his Military Cross? I believe that their was an investiture at Buckingham Palace that day? Any information about Captain Ireland and the 8th Battalion would be very gratefully received. Many thanks Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 4 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2022 Hello, thank you for taking the time to look. I have a question, Would an officer be awarded his MC while serving overseas, or just the ribbon? And if he was stationed at home, as was Lt Ireland, would it be possible that he was presented it by the King? The King was presenting awards on Saturday 16th March 1918, so is their a way of finding out who was receiving them that day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 4 February , 2022 Share Posted 4 February , 2022 (edited) Hi Paul, It would seem that his MC was a New Years 'Honours' award (with no published citation), and that he was physically decorated on 16.3.1918. Image sourced from the National Archives It seems that he originally served overseas as a Royal Engineer, prior to being commissioned in March 1916 to the 8th Bn where he served under the admin number of P118893. What remains of his service file was held by the MoD, but I believe that they are being transferred to the National Archive, and I don't how how far along they are with that process. Images sourced from Ancestry Image sourced from the National Archives (8/35 = 8th Bn 35th Regiment of Foot, aka the Royal Sussex Regiment) Regards Chris Edit: Under his 58143 RE service number his initial service/attestation is covered by a service file (FMP link) which should also be available on Ancestry Edited 4 February , 2022 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 4 February , 2022 Share Posted 4 February , 2022 (edited) Hi All, Service record for 58143 RE here...https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/30599_156190-00652?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=d5910525f3452a26cfd2e2b9c0571959&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qWZ3746&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1003422 Ancestry Family info. Marriage cert. 16th May, 1918 here... https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/4693953:1623 Public Family tree..Ancestry...here..https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/207951/person/25785255433/facts Regards Barry Edited 4 February , 2022 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 5 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2022 First of all, Many thanks Chris and Barry, I really appreciate your time and delighted with what you have found. The scan of his MC giving the date he was awarded it, really answers my question thank you, and Corporal to Captain was quite a feat, I'm not a member of Ancestry. com, could I trouble you one more time for images from those links? Best regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 5 February , 2022 Share Posted 5 February , 2022 2 hours ago, paul g knowles said: I'm not a member of Ancestry. com, could I trouble you one more time for images from those links? Best regards Paul Hi Paul, Sorry, I think this would be breaching the Copyright Rules of the GWF. See Forum Rules top left of home page. However, your local library will probably have free access to Ancestry. Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 5 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2022 Hi Barry, totally understand. I did think I may have been a little cheeky for asking. I'm just so grateful that you, Chris and George took the time to help me out, very much appreciated. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 18 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2022 Dear Forum, My recent post regarding Captain L. A. F. Ireland MC has provided me with a marvellous amount of research, for which I am very grateful to you all. I have another couple of questions which I'm hoping you can help me with. In the 1939 census he is noted as being 'Captain Army Officers Emergency Reserve'. I then find a London Gazette entry 12th March 1940 - 'The undermentioned to be Lts' - 'Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps' - Captain Leonard Archibald Frederik Ireland MC (118893) late R Sussex Regiment' My questions are: Was he called up to serve in 1939? was 118893 his new service number? and did he serve abroad? If he was called up, but did not serve abroad, would he be entitled to the Defence Medal? I have looked and cannot find any other details, so I'm struggling a bit. Can anyone help. Many thanks Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 18 February , 2022 Share Posted 18 February , 2022 One - called up yes. Two- as a Lt would not have a service number. Three - if served more than 3 years in a non combat zone yes to the Defence Medal which you can still apply for. His name occurs a few times in the Forces War Records Site, you have to sign up for it. Best of luck. Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 18 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2022 Hi Ralph, many thanks for looking and confirming that he was called up. It would appear then, that he was called up into the Pioneer Corps. I didn't realize officers were not given a number, it hadn't occurred to me. I wonder what the 118893 stands for? Also thank you for the information on the Defence Medal, and pointing to the Forces War Records site. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 18 February , 2022 Share Posted 18 February , 2022 28 minutes ago, paul g knowles said: I didn't realize officers were not given a number, it hadn't occurred to me. I wonder what the 118893 stands for? Officers didn't have service numbers in the Great War - they were introduced in the 1920's. 118893 is his service number. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 18 February , 2022 Share Posted 18 February , 2022 (edited) Hi Paul I note he resigns his commission in Oct 1943 due to ill health so would have had the three years to qualify for defence medal, unless several months of his WW2 service was abroad, which would qualify for cåmpaign medals etc. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36194/supplement/4399 According to this excerpt from Hansard it was not unusual for those in the Army Officers Emergency Reserve not to have been called upon until 1940. The expansion of the army & casualties in the Battle of France would have accelerated employment of such officers. https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1940/jul/09/officers-emergency-reserve I can't see much about the formation of the Army Officers Emergency Reserve but looks to have been a Feb 1939 reaction to the Munich Crisis. As a former officer, even though he resigned his commissioned in 1921 he would have been a typical candidate. His officers file is with the Mod & may contain any WW1 OR attestation. Name: Laf Ireland Birth Date: 21 Oct 1893 Service Number: P118893 Rank: Army Officers Reference Number:AOP000482769 https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=xrW139&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=61448&gsln=ireland&cp=0&_F2AC78D4=118893&new=1&rank=1&uidh=5eb&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=39&fh=55&h=34238&recoff=&fsk=MDs0OTs1MA-61--61-&bsk=&pgoff=&ml_rpos=56&queryId=b6705cfb1de108f9cc665f5862c46614 Travers Edited 18 February , 2022 by travers61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 18 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2022 30 minutes ago, PRC said: Officers didn't have service numbers in the Great War - they were introduced in the 1920's. 118893 is his service number. Cheers, Peter Hi Peter, many thanks for clarifying that and for taking the time to look. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 18 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2022 23 minutes ago, travers61 said: Hi Paul I note he resigns his commission in Oct 1943 due to ill health so would have had the three years to qualify for defence medal, unless several months of his WW2 service was abroad, which would qualify for cåmpaign medals etc. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36194/supplement/4399 Travers Hi Travers, thank you for taking the time to look, and for the link. This really is starting to come together. To think he started out as a Sapper in 1914 and ends up a Major in 1943. The group came together with two Majors crown insignia, so that answers that question. My next stop will be Pioneer Corp records between 1939 and 1943. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 18 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2022 9 minutes ago, paul g knowles said: Hi Travers, thank you for taking the time to look, and for the link. This really is starting to come together. To think he started out as a Sapper in 1914 and ends up a Major in 1943. The group came together with two Majors crown insignia, so that answers that question. My next stop will be Pioneer Corp records between 1939 and 1943. Regards Paul And it looks almost certain he qualifies for the Defence Medal. Can't thank you all enough, its all about asking the right people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 18 February , 2022 Share Posted 18 February , 2022 My Heritage web site has 10 individuals of this name listed, log on for a 14 day free trial. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 20 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2022 On 18/02/2022 at 15:20, travers61 said: Hi Paul I note he resigns his commission in Oct 1943 due to ill health so would have had the three years to qualify for defence medal, unless several months of his WW2 service was abroad, which would qualify for cåmpaign medals etc. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36194/supplement/4399 According to this excerpt from Hansard it was not unusual for those in the Army Officers Emergency Reserve not to have been called upon until 1940. The expansion of the army & casualties in the Battle of France would have accelerated employment of such officers. https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1940/jul/09/officers-emergency-reserve I can't see much about the formation of the Army Officers Emergency Reserve but looks to have been a Feb 1939 reaction to the Munich Crisis. As a former officer, even though he resigned his commissioned in 1921 he would have been a typical candidate. His officers file is with the Mod & may contain any WW1 OR attestation. Name: Laf Ireland Birth Date: 21 Oct 1893 Service Number: P118893 Rank: Army Officers Reference Number:AOP000482769 https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=xrW139&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=61448&gsln=ireland&cp=0&_F2AC78D4=118893&new=1&rank=1&uidh=5eb&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=39&fh=55&h=34238&recoff=&fsk=MDs0OTs1MA-61--61-&bsk=&pgoff=&ml_rpos=56&queryId=b6705cfb1de108f9cc665f5862c46614 Travers Hi Travers, Taken from the war diary of the Royal Pioneer Corps. I have found Major L A F Ireland MC OC (Officer Commanding) 183 Company Pioneer Corps, stationed at Huyton, Liverpool. The Alien Interment Camp at Woolfall Health, Huyton near Liverpool, was established in 1939 and known as No 5 Centre. It was the largest civilian internment camp on the British mainland, and comprised a small estate of council houses surrounded by security fencing. From 1940 to 1941 it housed up to 5000 enemy aliens, all theoretically in transit to the Isle of Man or the Dominions. Most internees, were men who had escaped from religious or political persecution across Europe, particularly Austria, Germany, Poland and France who had found their way to Great Britain in order to volunteer and fight against Germany. In October 1940 he and his company left for Northern Ireland, starting work at Carrickfergus and the port of Larne, mainly building new army camps with all the infrastructure required. In March 1941 they moved to Belfast and in May 1941, Major Ireland MC was made second in command of 65 Group. The work the pioneers carried out was varied and hard but essential as the military build up gathered momentum following the retreat from Dunkirk. The first American troops to arrive in Britain were soldiers of the US Army’s 34th Infantry Division, the “Red Bull” Division, who landed in Belfast, Northern Ireland on January 26, 1942. The soldiers had been part of convoy A-10 that sailed from Brooklyn, New York on January 15, 1942. The convoy included two troopships bearing 4,058 American combat soldiers. I haven't managed to get hold of his officers file at the MOD yet, but it looks like he was responsible for the building of military camps for the first US soldiers with men from across Europe. What a fascinating story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 20 February , 2022 Admin Share Posted 20 February , 2022 Threads merged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 21 February , 2022 Share Posted 21 February , 2022 Hi Paul, Thats really great that you can narrow his WW2 service down to a particular company of the Pioneers. I expect you have seen the book The King's Most Loyal Enemy Aliens: Germans Who Fought for Britain in the Second World War which describes the Pioneers as a first step into the British army for many of the alien internees, and interesting to wonder if he commanded men he had previously been guarding. Travers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul g knowles Posted 28 February , 2022 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2022 Hi Travers, sorry for not coming back to you sooner. I hadn't read the book, so thank you for suggesting it. Its funny how research opens doors on events and people that I simply had not given any thought to. Always a pleasure to learn something new. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now