Private (Acting S/Sgt) J Hills Reg/11 Army Veterinary Corps

[Ali Blake]

I have been researching a family tree line and came across info that a great grandfather was a Private in the AVC when he got married in 1907.  I have had a look on the usual sites and the only possibility I can find is this John Hills.  Would I be right in presuming this would be him as he was a regualr soldier before the outbreak of WW1?

I have found 2 AVC Medal Rolls which include his name and a general medal card and one for the award of the MSM in 1918.  This also states that he was serving with No12 vet Hospital.  I have drawn a blank so far as to where this hospital was located and if it was attached to a specific Brigade/Division so that I can get the relevant War Diary.

If I do have the right man, given that he enlisted in the early 00s, is there anywhere where I might find his enlistment records?  I'm aware that most WW1 records didn't survive.  Also, any information on No12 Vet Hospital would also be very much appreciated.

Many thanks

[ss002d6252]

28 minutes ago, Ali Blake said:

I have been researching a family tree line and came across info that a great grandfather was a Private in the AVC when he got married in 1907.  I have had a look on the usual sites and the only possibility I can find is this John Hills.  Would I be right in presuming this would be him as he was a regualr soldier before the outbreak of WW1?

I have found 2 AVC Medal Rolls which include his name and a general medal card and one for the award of the MSM in 1918.  This also states that he was serving with No12 vet Hospital.  I have drawn a blank so far as to where this hospital was located and if it was attached to a specific Brigade/Division so that I can get the relevant War Diary.

If I do have the right man, given that he enlisted in the early 00s, is there anywhere where I might find his enlistment records?  I'm aware that most WW1 records didn't survive.  Also, any information on No12 Vet Hospital would also be very much appreciated.

Many thanks

Do you know his age and place of birth ?

What is the service number of your possible man ?

Craig

[charlie962]

Whilst there is no doubt that the man whose mics you have picked up was a prewar regular- to France 12/8/14- and a man who was doing a 12 year service could embrace 1907 and mobilisation 1914, that is not enough.

Craig has noted some extra info we need as a minimum.

Do you have any other reason to believe he served ww1?

Charlie

[Ali Blake]

Craig

Apologies for missing out his personal information.  He was born in August 1882 in Chipping near Buntingford, Herts.  But by the 1901 census he was living and working in Islington, London.  And by 1911, he was married to Mary (Polly) Hills and living in Blackheath, Greenwich.  The only man I can find who may have been him had the Service No Reg/11.  I presume this means he was an enlisted regular soldier already serving in the Army prior to WW1.

[Ali Blake]

Charlie

I have no family information that he could have served in WW1 - all of our elderly relatives have now passed.  I just thought I'd look into the possibility as he was already in the Army (AVC) and would only have been in his early 30s when the war started.

 

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, Ali Blake said:

And by 1911, he was married to Mary (Polly) Hills and living in Blackheath, Greenwich.  The o

Occupation?

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Ali Blake said:

I have had a look on the usual sites and the only possibility I can find is this John Hills.  Would I be right in presuming this would be him as he was a regualr soldier before the outbreak of WW1?

I presume this one would be the John HILLS, AVC with a MIC a Regt No. of 11 and Reg/-"-[which will partly answer @ss002d6252 I reckon]

I suppose there is a possibility that he was a Reservist or Territorial at the outbreak war [??] @FROGSMILE has good knowledge of the AVC and may be able to assist you.

57 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Private in the AVC when he got married in 1907.

Where did he live and/or get married?

57 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Do you know his age and place of birth ?

These could be handy.

As could wider family details at birth and during the war.

In addition to the above soldier #11 there are MIC for other John HILLS who had a middle initial.  Including John C[ough] HILLS 19005 [a pension index card for him has an alternative (earlier?) R.No. of 57056] and John W HILLS, 30137 = these others are just for a 'pair' so rather seem likely to later recruits to AVC me. 

There is also pension card for Albert John HILLS, 04492 or 34492 [with an earlier(?) Royal Fusiliers 16007- from Borough, London] but I can't find a MIC for him.

Did he have any other forename(s)?

M

Edit: my apologies I have missed/crossed with other posts that may also be relevant.  Strike as 04492 was for Albert Percy HILLS, AVC

 

 

Edited 31 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
edit and then strike

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Ali Blake said:

I have been researching a family tree line and came across info that a great grandfather was a Private in the AVC when he got married in 1907. 

Is that on a marriage certificate ?

If so, what details are given and where was the marriage registered ?

Craig

[Ali Blake]

No middle names according to the baptism record on Ancestry and his marriage certificate.  He was married 3 Apr 1907 to Polly Arnell (spelling mistake as her given name was Mary Arnall) at the Register Office, Greenwich.  He has given his occupation as Private, Army Veterinary Corps

[ss002d6252]

27 minutes ago, Ali Blake said:

No middle names according to the baptism record on Ancestry and his marriage certificate.  He was married 3 Apr 1907 to Polly Arnell (spelling mistake as her given name was Mary Arnall) at the Register Office, Greenwich.  He has given his occupation as Private, Army Veterinary Corps

The earliest he could have typically enlisted was age 18 - so 1900.

The typical enlistment period was 12 years (which then broke down into various combinations of 7&5, 8&4, 3&9 etc - depending on when he enlisted). Providing any 12 year period ended before August 1914 then he had no automatic recall to the army (unless he'd chosen to extend his service).

Craig

[charlie962]

Certain figures would fit for no 11 John Hills.

This number was indeed issued in early 1904 to AVC (NB not unique because used again by TF and in WW1).

The service terms at that date were 3 years Colours and 7 years Reserve.

So Hills could have completed his colour service early 1907, transferred to the Reserve and got married March 1907. Fairly classic.

He would still have a mobilisation liability that would not expire until early 1916.

So he would be mobilised 5/8/14 and off to France 12/8/14.

In summary there is nothing to say that '11 John Hills' is not your John Hills!

Charlie

 

[Ali Blake]

Craig.  I know that he was a dust collector listed in the 1901 Census.  So he would have joined up sometime after then.  In the 1911 census he was listed with his family but his name was scored through as 'slept away from home'.  No occupation listed. So that made me think that maybe he was still in the AVC then and maybe confined to barracks.  

Charlie.  Thanks for the info.  John came from a long line of farm workers in Herts so I suppose it would make sense for him to join the AVC

[FROGSMILE]

The principal Army Veterinary Corps HQ and Depot was at Woolwich (and was previously “The Royal Horse Infirmary”).  So too was the No 2 Veterinary Hospital, which was made up of Nos 3 and 4 Sections of the AVC.

The equine activity there (Woolwich) was enormous, as it was also a depot for the RHA and RFA, the training school for drivers and farriers, as well as the Army Service Corps Horse Transport section and its school for artisan trades that included in its number collar makers and harness makers (including saddlers).  It also had a cavalry barracks for a regular unit and had long been associated with Lancer regiments (Shrapnel barracks).

For @Ali Blake: there is a useful resource for tracing AVC service at the following link.  It was set up by an American enthusiast of the US Army equivalent (of same name), who became so inundated with confused British inquirers seeking information that she took on researching both: http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gregkrenzelok/genealogy/veterinary corp in ww1/royalarmyveterinarycorpsww1.html

NB.  Royal Horse Infirmary (see far left of map).

“Woolwich common was regularly used for the training and exercise of horses.  The Royal Field Artillery and the Royal Horse Artillery both made extensive use of horses, as did the Army Service Corps (based in Connaught Barracks). In 1805, at the far south-western corner of the common, a Veterinary Establishment was built by the Ordnance Veterinary Service. Later named the Royal Horse Infirmary, it became the headquarters of the Army Veterinary Department (predecessor of the RAVC, whose Corps Depot remained in Woolwich until 1939). Adjoining it was a Remount Establishment, to procure and train new horses for the Artillery and Royal Engineers, which was later expanded to form the principal, home establishment depot of the Army Remount Service.”

Edited 31 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[ss002d6252]

I suspect that the crossed-out reference on the census is John's occupation on the 1911 census.


Craig

[charlie962]

When no 11 Hills was awarded the MSM it will give, in the London Gazette, his hometown. I don't have access at the moment but his MSM card says lg 17/6/18 so about this time.

Can someone else check please?

Edit possibly this list.

"Page 7152 | Supplement 30750, 14 June 1918 | London Gazette | The Gazette" https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30750/supplement/7152

Edited 31 January , 2022 by charlie962

[ss002d6252]

14 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

When no 11 Hills was awarded the MSM it will give, in the London Gazette, his hometown. I don't have access at the moment but his MSM card says lg 17/6/18 so about this time.

Can someone else check please?

I can't see any entry for him at the moment (using FMP).

Craig

[charlie962]

Craig, use the link I have added direct to LG. I just cannot download to phone.

Edited 31 January , 2022 by charlie962

[Matlock1418]

27 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

"Page 7152 | Supplement 30750, 14 June 1918 | London Gazette | The Gazette" https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30750/supplement/7152

One of the foibles of the LG - you can unfortunately drift off target.

Actually on page 7150 - very bottom right.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30750/supplement/7150

War Office, 17th June, 1918. His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of the Meritorious Service Medal to the undermentioned Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned Officers and Men, in recognition of valuable services rendered with the Forces in France during the present war: —  ...  11 Pte. (A./S./Sjt.) J. Hills, A.V.C. (Woolwich).

Woolwich it is.

M

Edited 31 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
expand the quote

[charlie962]

Thank you Matlock. So he was living Blackheath thus home town or place of enlistment Woolwich still keeps 11 John Hills in play, in fact looking very plausible.

Edited 31 January , 2022 by charlie962

[Ali Blake]

Thanks so much to you all for the efforts you are making on my behalf.  It's very much appreciated

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

I suspect that the crossed-out reference on the census is John's occupation on the 1911 census.


Craig

Craig, could you post a link please, preferably FmP?

Thanks

charlie

 

[ss002d6252]

22 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Craig, could you post a link please, preferably FmP?

Thanks

charlie

 

I use an institutional login - but try this link and see it works - https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F02713%2F0449%2F1

Craig

[charlie962]

Thanks Craig. So we have in 1911 John Hill living off Shooter's Hill Rd, a groom in Government service. With the info that frogsmile has posted above and the comments I made earlier on enlistment and service of '11 John Hills', plus his MSM address, I think we can be pretty certain that they are all the same man. Too many coincidences.

Decision is yours, Ali.

Charlie

Edited 31 January , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

As to no12 Veterinary Hospital there is an old forum discussion here that concludes it was at Neufchatel near Etaples. But Hills must have gone out with another outfit in 1914? 

"James Brooks, Army Veterinary Corps - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/232501-james-brooks-army-veterinary-corps/ 

The war diary is here at Nat Archives, free to download if you register: 

"Lines of Communication Troops. 12 Veterinary Hospital | The National Archives" https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/f6ef819569a04138a8109efdeb825c16

Edited 31 January , 2022 by charlie962

[Ali Blake]

Many thanks to all of you who have spent time, effort and used your expertise on my query.  I think, from all the investigations you have carried out, that 11 John Hills is our great grandfather.  I'm most grateful.

Ali