Blackened Bronze(?) Panels on War Memorials: has anyone found a way of cleaning them?

[rolt968]

During the Centenary (or at any other time) hasy anyone found a way of cleaning the blackened bronze(?) panels on many war memorials.

Not entriely concentrating one morning a few months ago while standing quite close to a memorial I was a little startled to see that one man was commemorated as "J.S.M". On closer inspection it turned out to be "J.SIM".

RM

[fellop]

Perhaps a word of caution. War memorials belong to someone, or rather perhaps in the care of someone, Parish Council or County Council or Local Authority or whatever. Much the same I suspect with CWGC headstones, their care, cleaning and maintenance is the responsibility of the CWGC even if the work is contracted out.

I know my local parish council some years ago, went a bit ‘Pear Shaped’ when a couple of well meaning individuals [with the best intentions] put an item on the Village FB Page asking for like minded volunteers to turn up the following Saturday when the would proceed to ‘Brighten Up the village war memorial’. The Parish Council made no bones about the fact that the memorial and its surrounding gardens was in the care of and funded by the Parish Council and they do fund an ongoing programme of maintenance, grass cutting, fence painting, gardens maintenance, steam cleaning of the memorial itself etc etc and it was not for individuals of the village just to turn up as ultimately any damage etc would have to be paid for from Parish funds.

 

Just a thought perhaps.

 

Regards

Peter

[rolt968]

4 minutes ago, fellop said:

Perhaps a word of caution. War memorials belong to someone, or rather perhaps in the care of someone, Parish Council or County Council or Local Authority or whatever. Much the same I suspect with CWGC headstones, their care, cleaning and maintenance is the responsibility of the CWGC even if the work is contracted out.

I know my local parish council some years ago, went a bit ‘Pear Shaped’ when a couple of well meaning individuals [with the best intentions] put an item on the Village FB Page asking for like minded volunteers to turn up the following Saturday when the would proceed to ‘Brighten Up the village war memorial’. The Parish Council made no bones about the fact that the memorial and its surrounding gardens was in the care of and funded by the Parish Council and they do fund an ongoing programme of maintenance, grass cutting, fence painting, gardens maintenance, steam cleaning of the memorial itself etc etc and it was not for individuals of the village just to turn up as ultimately any damage etc would have to be paid for from Parish funds.

 

Just a thought perhaps.

 

Regards

Peter

Thanks Peter.

I appreciate the point. I wasn't going to do it myself. Too big for a start.

I was wondering why in the centenary a lot of war memorials were c;leaned but the (big) blackened list panels don't seem to have been. Indeed in at least one case a new legible list panel has been added.

RM

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I suppose because there's no way of cleaning off the oxide layer without taking off some of the bronze itself.

We've all seen the effect of over vigorous cleaning of war medals.

Probably best left alone?

[Matlock1418]

On 29/01/2022 at 10:58, rolt968 said:

a way of cleaning the blackened bronze(?) panels

Some cast bronze was perhaps/is now quite often given a chemically-induced patina = Caution when anybody considers any cleaning.

[also agree with caution regarding how the owners/custodians might feel about such cleaning activities]

Just an aside - if you want one - at least one modern/current internationally-recognised UK foundry I know of doing artistic sculptural castings can give your bronze a chemically-induced patina(s) in a range of colours including sugar pink! [Returning to the OP question = They may perhaps be able to provide advice on cleaning bronzes ?? - possibly providing a cleaning service for the right type of applicants ???]

M

Edited 8 February , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

Adding as a separate post - in case the Mods think this is commercial advertising [which it is not] and wish to remove it. :-/  I hope not.

The foundry mentioned above is Pangolin Editions - go web search for it = amazing!

The principals have incredible artistic and technical skills - as do their team.

Also working with internationally-acclaimed artists - and PE appear also to have done work on the Bomber Command Memorial with seven aircrew members etc.

Declaration of interest = I have NONE - but I have visited the foundry and seen the processes and samples of the fantastic work they do = Respect!

M

Edit: Knew I'd seen reference to helping with museum and private restorations - see also in this web leaflet http://gallery-pangolin.com/downloads/pangolin-editions/press-releases/foundryleafletforwebsite

Edited 29 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[jay dubaya]

All you need to know about cleaning War Memorials https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/conserving-war-memorials-cleaning/heag147-conserving-war-memorials/

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

We've all seen the effect of over vigorous cleaning of war medals.

And the over-cleaning/polishing of Memorial Plaques too.

Sadly [whilst touring a local cemetery for WW1 research purpose] I've also seen schoolchildren, under adult supervision, with hard brushes vigourously cleaning/scrubbing soft and crumbling Portland stone CWGC headstones [at least those headstones could get a future replacement by CWGC]

One wonders in such cases if the benefit of the enhanced knowledge of those children will outway the damage they have done ??  I hope so.

Not quite so with many other types of memorials. :-(

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

All you need to know about cleaning War Memorials https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/conserving-war-memorials-cleaning/heag147-conserving-war-memorials/

Handy - So long as the cleaning is done in a suitable and commensurately measured manner.

M

[rolt968]

Thank you to evryone for a great deal of infromation.

RM

[rolt968]

On 29/01/2022 at 15:26, Matlock1418 said:

 

Sadly [whilst touring a local cemetery for WW1 research purpose] I've also seen schoolchildren, under adult supervision, with hard brushes vigourously cleaning/scrubbing soft and crumbling Portland stone CWGC headstones [at least those headstones could get a future replacement by CWGC].

A wicked temptation to try this on one or two CWGC RFC gravestones (alas in excellent condition) which have RAF badges on them.

RM

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, rolt968 said:

A wicked temptation to try this on one or two CWGC RFC gravestones (alas in excellent condition) which have RAF badges on them.

I know what you mean!

Unfortunately many of those "RAF" headstones are probably going to outlast us both so we won't get to see if CWGC does what it has promised to do - namely to replace them with RFC badges. :-/

M

[Guest]

Mates,

I must admit my Grand Mother (she also admits this) ruined my Grand fathers bronze plaque by cleaning it each week for many years after he passed.

So much so that a dirty green and not a nice dark or black colour

In the end a local cemetery company painted his plaque a tan colour which is just as bad (this company did it for many bronze plaques in the local cemetery.

In Australia all veterns/families from any war, when they die, can apply for one of these Bronzes for their graves

S.B

 

[squirrel]

Portland stone should only be cleaned with water and a soft brush - CWGC advice.

For more extensive cleaning a memorial mason should be consulted - the latest treatments are carried our with ultrasonic cleaning apparatus.

 

[rolt968]

15 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Mates,

I must admit my Grand Mother (she also admits this) ruined my Grand fathers bronze plaque by cleaning it each week for many years after he passed.

So much so that a dirty green and not a nice dark or black colour

In the end a local cemetery company painted his plaque a tan colour which is just as bad (this company did it for many bronze plaques in the local cemetery.

In Australia all veterns/families from any war, when they die, can apply for one of these Bronzes for their graves

S.B

 

Thank you. This is very interesting I will post a link to this in my other thread about the colours of death plaques attached to gravestones.

RM

[Matlock1418]

8 hours ago, squirrel said:

Portland stone should only be cleaned with water and a soft brush - CWGC advice.

I hope you did not consider my sad encounter described above [vigourous scrubbing with a hard brush] to be an approved means of cleaning Portland stone!

I too would like to make it clear that the CWGC advice is the approved method for their Portland headstones [and, despite their apparent additional hardness, I suspect similarly for the many other stone types used too]

8 hours ago, squirrel said:

For more extensive cleaning a memorial mason should be consulted

This seems fair enough

8 hours ago, squirrel said:

the latest treatments are carried our with ultrasonic cleaning apparatus.

I'm intrigued as to what this is and how it's done.

M

[squirrel]

14 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I hope you did not consider my sad encounter described above [vigourous scrubbing with a hard brush] to be an approved means of cleaning Portland stone!

I too would like to make it clear that the CWGC advice is the approved method for their Portland headstones [and, despite their apparent additional hardness, I suspect similarly for the many other stone types used too]

This seems fair enough

I'm intrigued as to what this is and how it's done.

M

Not for a minute did I consider that you were advocating this method of cleaning headstones. The results from the latest approved methods of cleaning used by memorial masons are impressive. The do however usually reveal just how much renovation work is required on stones and memorials that have been well weathered over the years. The pictures show before and after ultrasonic cleaning and this also revealed that most of the the lettering needed replacement as well as some sharpening of edges, incising of some of the detail etc.

[Matlock1418]

6 hours ago, squirrel said:

Not for a minute did I consider that you were advocating this method of cleaning headstones.

Just checking! = I'm relieved ;-)

Impressive results indeed.

I am still not sure on/for what and how their ultrasonic cleaning works - I had been imagining for temporarily removed bronze metal parts immersed into an ultrasonic cleaning bath full of some special liquid (agueous solution or organic liquid solvent) and then blasted with ultrasound vibrations to dislodge/remove any crud before replacement?? [As can be used for the cleaning of small jewellery and watches etc., but obviously on a larger scale].  I wonder if it could be used on stone and/or in a different way???

M

Edited 3 February , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[Collyhurstkid]

The CWGC have recruited and are recruiting a growing army of Volunteers via the Eyes On Hands On Programme (EOHO). The Hands On refers to the cleaning of CWGC headstones which is done carefully with water and a stiff brush (nothing else). Volunteers may also tidy up the ground around the headstone by simple measures such as weeding and cutting grass. They are not allowed to clean Private Memorials. Training is provided by the CWGC for the hands on work. The Eyes On aspect is to inspect and photograph all CWGC headstones and memorials in the United Kingdom and submit reports to CWGC for the attention of the paid Maintenance Teams. I recently reported and sent in a photo of a damaged headstone and I have just been informed by the CWGC that this headstone will now be replaced. Each volunteer looks after a  number of cemeteries which contain Commonwealth War Dead and these include council owned sites and churchyards.

Gary

[Matlock1418]

19 minutes ago, Collyhurstkid said:

The Hands On refers to the cleaning of CWGC headstones which is done carefully with water and a stiff brush (nothing else) ... ... ...

I worry about the hardness of a stiff brush [and the amount of vigour applied - hopefully the EOHO teams' HO are not so vigorous as the school kids previously seen at work]

Though not a EOHO team member I too have submitted photos of damage to CWGC and the stones were replaced :-)  So worth submitting if you spot serious damage or toppled stones.

And photos of inaccurate headstones too - stones then corrected by small 'stone' [resin?] inserts and reincising of details. [OK, you won't get a RAF badge changed on a RFC grave - well not until it is eventually replaced in due course]

Please keep up your good EOHO work.

M

[squirrel]

CWGC EOHO instruction is a soft brush.

[Matlock1418]

55 minutes ago, squirrel said:

CWGC EOHO instruction is a soft brush.

Quite = soft brush.

M

[Collyhurstkid]

The term 'soft brush' has been superseded. The quote below is from the EOHO Team (checked yesterday) and is the advice I and all EOHO trained volunteers follow:

"The CWGC asks that trained volunteers use water and a natural bristle brush or nylon brush on headstones. No metal or wire brushes are to be used. The overall cleaning methods, including how to clean and when to clean headstones forms a key part of the training we share with volunteers."

Natural bristle brushes are definitely not soft but are indeed stiff. As I stated in my original post they must be used carefully.

Cheers

Gary

[Interested]

I didn't see any mention above of the War Memorials Trust (may have missed it) but they provide funding for the restoration of War Memorials:

War Memorials Trust

They have a mechanism for recording the condition of Memorials, so they ought to be your first port of call.

Hope this helps.

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, Collyhurstkid said:

The term 'soft brush' has been superseded. The quote below is from the EOHO Team (checked yesterday) and is the advice I and all EOHO trained volunteers follow:

"The CWGC asks that trained volunteers use water and a natural bristle brush or nylon brush on headstones. No metal or wire brushes are to be used. The overall cleaning methods, including how to clean and when to clean headstones forms a key part of the training we share with volunteers."

Natural bristle brushes are definitely not soft but are indeed stiff. As I stated in my original post they must be used carefully.

Hmm ... Things seem to have moved on ... Thanks for this update.

Care must certainly be employed, and even more now it seems.

Not perhaps when cleaned by EOHO but when others clean with a stiff natural bristle brush I foresee more replacement portland headstones being required - the evidence I have previously seen with my own eyes. :-/

M

[Matlock1418]

Interesting to note that in the CWGC Annual Report of 1926-27 there is reference to headstones being treated with "fluate dressing" to prevent growth of moss etc.

Image courtesy of CWGC - within: http://archive.cwgc.org/GetMultimedia.ashx?db=Catalog&type=default&fname=f1\f2605d-b9aa-4b7f-883c-366ec891af36.pdf 

Anyone know:

• What was this fluate dressing?
• Does CWGC apply any such type(s) of dressings to headstones and/or Stones of Remembrance or Crosses of Sacrifice or Memorials nowadays?

M

Edited 9 February , 2022 by Matlock1418
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