HMT Royal Edward Survivor

[Maz08]

Hi, my great grandfather was in the 1st Battalion Essex Regiment (may possibly have been in the Norfolk Regiment prior to this). My mum has always told me he was in the Dardenelles and his boat was torpedoed and sank but he managed to survive. After much searching, I found a pension card with the same address on it as his was on the 1911 census. Otherwise I would never have found him. An online search of his service record had proved fruitless!

I went on from there and have made the hopefully correct assumption that he used to tell family about the sinking of HMT Royal Edward. Is there anyway of confirming this? He was a Private, so not listed in any of the survivor lists I've seen.

Thanks

 

[jonbem]

Welcome to the forum

Ifyou give us his name, date of birth,location etc the members may be able to help

regards

Jon

[FROGSMILE]

Forum member @Kathhas long had a special interest in the HMT Royal Edward and might perhaps be able to assist, although I’ve not seen her post for a while now.  Hopefully this might draw her attention.

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Maz08 said:

Hi, my great grandfather was in the 1st Battalion Essex Regiment (may possibly have been in the Norfolk Regiment prior to this). My mum has always told me he was in the Dardenelles and his boat was torpedoed and sank but he managed to survive. After much searching, I found a pension card with the same address on it as his was on the 1911 census. Otherwise I would never have found him. An online search of his service record had proved fruitless!

I went on from there and have made the hopefully correct assumption that he used to tell family about the sinking of HMT Royal Edward.

Hi @Maz08 and welcome to the forum.

If his service number was in the range 20500 to 20800, (approx) then he would have been part of the draft of 300 volunteers of the 3rd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment who were aboard the Royal Edward when she was torpedoed. Although they were Norfolk Regiment men, a not insignificant number were Londoners from the East side of the city & Essex, which might explain the keeness to volunteer for service with the 1st Essex.

Cheers,
Peter

[Maz08]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi @Maz08 and welcome to the forum.

If his service number was in the range 20500 to 20800, (approx) then he would have been part of the draft of 300 volunteers of the 3rd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment who were aboard the Royal Edward when she was torpedoed. Although they were Norfolk Regiment men, a not insignificant number were Londoners from the East side of the city & Essex, which might explain the keeness to volunteer for service with the 1st Essex.

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter, 

Thank you for your reply. His service no. was 20650 and he was Norfolk born and bred, like me! On his Pension card, underneath this no. is another five digit number, would that have been his Royal Norfolk service no.?

Thanks again,

Mary-Anne

[Maz08]

8 hours ago, jonbem said:

Welcome to the forum

Ifyou give us his name, date of birth,location etc the members may be able to help

regards

Jon

Hi Jon, thanks for your reply. His name was John Curl, born 1892 in Norwich. Some records I have found have his year of birth as 1898 and name written (on original documents!) as John Curd.

I have medal records and pension card as well as medical records but not having much luck with service records, despite trying all sorts of combinations.

Many thanks 

Mary-Anne

[jonbem]

7 minutes ago, Maz08 said:

but not having much luck with service records,

Unfortunately about 60% of the soldiers' Service Records were irretrievably damaged or lost completely as a result of enemy bombing in 1940 during the Second World War. The exact number of serving British soldiers is not known because of the loss of the records.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Maz08 said:

Thank you for your reply. His service no. was 20650 and he was Norfolk born and bred, like me! On his Pension card, underneath this no. is another five digit number, would that have been his Royal Norfolk service no.?

There can be all sorts of numbers on the old Ministry of Pensions cards, so without seeing it I couldn't say - run the number past me though and I'll see if it's known to belong to another Norfolk Regiment man and so can be discounted.

I see he was honourably discharged before the end of the war, and so received the Silver War Badge. There is an index card for that so that the clerks at the relevant records office at Warley could keep track of where it was listed on the Regiments Silver War badge roll.

The index card shows him with the surname as Curd and the date of enlistment as the 2nd January 1915. If it's any help with your query the non Territorial Force Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment issued service number 17578 to a man who enlisted on the 28th December 1914 and 17820 to a man who enlisted on the 7th January 1915.

John "Curd" was discharged, like so many, under Kings Regulation 1916 Paragraph 392 (xvi), Being no longer fit for military service. Hopefully the pension card will tell you if this was a result of wounds or ill-health.

Hope that helps,

Peter

And apologies - I've tried to be strong and not bite, but I can't stop myself. They were not the Royal Norfolk Regiment until 1935

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, Maz08 said:

.......... His name was John Curl, born 1892 in Norwich. Some records I have found have his year of birth as 1898 and name written (on original documents!) as John Curd.

...... and his MIC (15 Star/BWM/BVM) are as 20650 J. CURL, 1st Battalion Essex Regiment and entered Balkans Theatre 18.9.15. His SWB (#16609) is as 20650 John CURD, Essex Regiment.  

HMT Royal Edward was attacked and sunk on 13 August 1915.  Soldiers immediately on either side of 20650 Pte John Curl, Essex Regiment, and recorded as perished in this attack, are 20649 Pte Albert Berry, Essex Regiment and 20651 Pte James Percy Clare, Essex Regiment.  Both are commemorated on the Helles Memorial. 

I would offer that this peripheral IWGC/CWGC evidence, in the absence of an actual  Service Record, strongly supports the family narrative that John was indeed aboard HMT Royal Edward at the time of sinking.

Edited 29 January , 2022 by TullochArd

[Maz08]

13 minutes ago, PRC said:

There can be all sorts of numbers on the old Ministry of Pensions cards, so without seeing it I couldn't say - run the number past me though and I'll see if it's known to belong to another Norfolk Regiment man and so can be discounted.

I see he was honourably discharged before the end of the war, and so received the Silver War Badge. There is an index card for that so that the clerks at the relevant records office at Warley could keep track of where it was listed on the Regiments Silver War badge roll.

The index card shows him with the surname as Curd and the date of enlistment as the 2nd January 1915. If it's any help with your query the non Territorial Force Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment issued service number 17578 to a man who enlisted on the 28th December 1914 and 17820 to a man who enlisted on the 7th January 1915.

John "Curd" was discharged, like so many, under Kings Regulation 1916 Paragraph 392 (xvi), Being no longer fit for military service. Hopefully the pension card will tell you if this was a result of wounds or ill-health.

Hope that helps,

Peter

And apologies - I've tried to be strong and not bite, but I can't stop myself. They were not the Royal Norfolk Regiment until 1935

Hi Peter, many thanks for the informative reply. The number I was wondering about is 17627, so is fairly close to the others you have mentioned. I've managed to find two medical records. One was the 31st Ambulance Train on 25th April 1917, which details a gunshot wound in his right shoulder, and the other is the 18th (Chicago USA) General Hospital on 30 March 1918 with a gunshot wound to his back, so I should imagine he was invalided out.

Sorry about the (Royal) Norfolk slip-up. My husband's g-father was in the Royal Norfolk's during WWII and I've spent so much time searching for his records, that it's almost become a force of habit!

Kind regards 

Mary-Anne

[Kath]

Another survivor, but not for long:

https://archive.org/details/croydongreatwaro00moor/page/270/mode/2up?view=theater

[Maz08]

58 minutes ago, Kath said:

Another survivor, but not for long:

https://archive.org/details/croydongreatwaro00moor/page/270/mode/2up?view=theater

@Kath What a shame! I've been searching the British Newspaper Archives for mention of my great grandfather but I haven't managed to find anything...yet. 

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Maz08 said:

The number I was wondering about is 17627, so is fairly close to the others you have mentioned.

Would be quite a coincidence if it wasn't his Norfolk Regiment service number. Dates and service numbers are a little bit out of order in those few days at the start of January 1915 - I assuming due to the time of year it took a bit longer for some men to travel from where they had enlisted to where they were required to report to for training and so receive their service number. Thus 17648 was issued to a man who enlisted on the 1st January 1915.

17627 is also one of the numbers I've not yet been able to account for, so who said no good deed goes unpunished unrewarded

Among the 3rd Battalion men who volunteered to go out as a draft to the 1st Essex were a number with five digit service numbers in the range 17500 to 18100. They included 17631 George Robert Farrow, (20605 with the Essex Regiment), a Wymondham man who would lose his life in the sinking of the Royal Edward. Also drowned was 17624 Sydney Dyball, (20656 with the Essex), from Beeston Common, Sheringham.

3 hours ago, Maz08 said:

I've managed to find two medical records. One was the 31st Ambulance Train on 25th April 1917, which details a gunshot wound in his right shoulder, and the other is the 18th (Chicago USA) General Hospital on 30 March 1918 with a gunshot wound to his back, so I should imagine he was invalided out.

Looks like FMP have a third Medical Admission Register entry for him. Unfortunately I don't have a subscription, so can only see the search results. I suspect the one you are missing is shown as T. Curl. (Just do a search of the Miliary records using optional keyword Essex and service number 20650 and they should pop up).

3 hours ago, Maz08 said:

Sorry about the (Royal) Norfolk slip-up. My husband's g-father was in the Royal Norfolk's during WWII and I've spent so much time searching for his records, that it's almost become a force of habit!

No worries, I just didn't want the admins putting me on the naughty step for not playing nicely

3 hours ago, TullochArd said:

and his MIC (15 Star/BWM/BVM) are as 20650 J. CURL, 1st Battalion Essex Regiment and entered Balkans Theatre 18.9.15. His SWB (#16609) is as 20650 John CURD, Essex Regiment.  

So looks like one of those hospitalised at Alexandria if it was over a month before he landed at Gallipoli. Swallowing sea water \ fuel oil and or dentures seem to have been the main debilatators.

@Maz08. If you have access to Ancestry the War Diary for the 1st Essex during their time on Gallipoli can be seen there. It's very unlikely to mention John Curl by name but you may be able to pick up mentions of the arrivals of drafts, as well as get a feel for where they were and what they were up to. I'd suggest using this search page: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60380

For unit serving in France & Flanders as well as using Ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60779/ you can also currently download war diaries for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one, even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" and follow the instructions - no financial details required.

Unfortunately the Service Medals Rolls for the Essex Regiment are absolutely useless when it comes to finding out which units he served with overseas. Fortunately you have the three Medical Register entries, which sometimes even state Company as well as Battalion to fall back on. As the war went on it was rare for a man to be returned to the unit he had had previously been serving with if he had been medically evacuated back as far as the coast or even the UK.

If he was still 1st Battalion then the diaries from their arrival in March 1916 can be found in the National Archive catalogue here:-

March 1916 to January 1918: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353593
February 1918 to March 1919: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354108

If he ended up with other Battalions then the best search facility for War Diaries at the National Archive is in their research guide here https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-war-diaries-1914-1922/

I don't think I've come across anything in the local press as yet for John Curl, certainly not a picture, but I do have a mass of notes and images waiting to be typed up. I'll have a check and see what I can find about survivors of the Royal Edward sinking. There was plenty in the Norwich Mercury and the Norfolk Chronicle about the incident, but the copies available at the County Archive on micro-film of the Eastern Daily Press were of low quality and difficult to read. I'd only just started on the Eastern Evening News editions for the same period when lock down kicked in but they were a big improvement.

It was to be a sad couple of days for Norfolk families. While the Royal Edward and the troops aboard were sailing across the Mediterranean on the 12th August 1915, not aware of the fate that lay ahead of them, the men of the 1/4th and 1/5th Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment were advancing across the scrub of the Anafarta Plain at Gallipoli in their first ever combat. What followed would be little short of a massacre, with the 1/5th effectvely ceasing to exist.

Those two Norfolk Regiments Battalions were part of the 54th (East Anglian) Division, a Territorial Force unit. The Division had sailed from England for Gallipoli at the end of July 1915 leaving behind a number of their support units, including several field ambulances, to follow on a few days later. These locally raised units from Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex were also aboard the Royal Edward.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

His pension card shows 2 service numbers - an Essex number and an earlier number below it (without reference to the regiment).

He was pensioned on 29 Sep 1918 with a payment of 13s 9d per week/

https://www.fold3.com/image/700798131?terms=curl,20650

Craig

[PRC]

15 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

 

Scratching my head over that address till I looked him up on the 1911 Census of England & Wales - the 18 year old John Curl, a Boot Finisher born Norwich, was recorded living at 8 Crown Court Yard, Elm Hill, Norwich. Hands up anyone who would have got that just from looking at the card

[Maz08]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Scratching my head over that address till I looked him up on the 1911 Census of England & Wales - the 18 year old John Curl, a Boot Finisher born Norwich, was recorded living at 8 Crown Court Yard, Elm Hill, Norwich. Hands up anyone who would have got that just from looking at the card

I didn't! It wasn't until I looked at the 1911 that it became clear (and confirmed I had the right Pension card!) Many of the Curl family worked in shoe factories. My Great Aunts worked for Start-rite. 

3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

His pension card shows 2 service numbers - an Essex number and an earlier number below it (without reference to the regiment).

He was pensioned on 29 Sep 1918 with a payment of 13s 9d per week/

https://www.fold3.com/image/700798131?terms=curl,20650

Craig

Thanks Craig,

We think the second service number is his Norfolk Regiment one.

Mary-Anne

[Maz08]

15 hours ago, PRC said:

Looks like FMP have a third Medical Admission Register entry for him. Unfortunately I don't have a subscription, so can only see the search results. I suspect the one you are missing is shown as T. Curl. (Just do a search of the Miliary records using optional keyword Essex and service number 20650 and they should pop up)

Hi Peter,

Wow! Thank you so much for all that information!

I have this record. It's the admission and discharge book of 18th (Chicago USA) General Hospital. Admitted 30 March 1918. He is listed as being in 2nd Battalion Essex Regiment. He was discharged on 4th April 1918. Are the case books available to read? There is reference to one on this record.

When he was wounded in 1917, he was still in 1st Battalion.

15 hours ago, PRC said:

@Maz08. If you have access to Ancestry the War Diary for the 1st Essex during their time on Gallipoli can be seen there. It's very unlikely to mention John Curl by name but you may be able to pick up mentions of the arrivals of drafts, as well as get a feel for where they were and what they were up to. I'd suggest using this search page: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60380

I will have a look!

Many thanks

Mary-Anne