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Pte James R Musk - 1st E Lancs/8th Royal Lancs/ 13th Yorkshires -MM


AndrewSid

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I’m trying to fill in some holes in this soldiers history. He is one of the most interesting men in a draft i am looking at.

He survived the war it seems

He was likely mobilised early 1916 and either went briefly into the RFA then Lancs Fusiliers (LF) or direct to the LF (serv numbers not know 2 or 3 of them) Basic training in the UK with the LF before France early Oct 1916.  Short admin only spell with the E Lancs in Depot ( 34660) before being posted into the field to the 8th Bn Royal  Lancaster  Regiment (27605).  

At some point he found himself with the 13 Manchester's.  This is likely following wounding with the 8th Bn, but i cant find when or what?

He was awarded the MM which was gazetted in Aug 1919.  Given that the 13th folded into the 1/9th in Aug 1918.  Is it normal for the awards to take so long to be gazetted?  I’m presuming it was a WW1 award.

TO ADD -  he was from Rawtenstall, Lancs 

In summary and help on when and why he moved to the Manchester's and details on him MM if anyone can assist.

Andy 

Edited by AndrewSid
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  • AndrewSid changed the title to Pte James R Musk - 1st E Lancs/8th Royal Lancs/ 13th Manchesters -MM
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6 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

At some point he found himself with the 13 Manchester's

6 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

help on when and why he moved to the Manchester's

Andy

Unless I'm missing something, I think you will find he was actually transferred from the 8/KORLR to the 13th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment (not the Manchester Regiment).

He was allotted the number 64001 in that Regiment which I would estimate as being allotted circa mid September 1918 just before this Battalion was sent for active service to North Russia in October 1918. I would suggest he won his MM out there with them - and being gazetted mid 1919 would fit with that suggestion.

Unfortunately, the compilation of MM citations was long ago destroyed.

But you might have luck and find a citation in the relevant War Diary - which is this one - but it's not digitised, so it will require a visit to Kew !

Syren force: 236 Infantry Brigade: Headquarters (1918 Sept - 1919 Aug). 236 Infantry... | The National Archives

If you find out, come back and let us all know !

Regards

Russ

 

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Thanks Russ. Of course Yorkshire’s not Manchesters!    I did wonder if perhaps he won his MM in another theatre post 11 Nov 1918.  I had a great uncle out in Russia in 1919 with the RAF River Force so I’m broadly familiar with the campaign.  I will read in.

From what I’ve seen the only way to get transferred out of the 8th was via becoming a casualty and then joining the depot pool for re-allocation if you were able to sufficiently recover.  I’m chasing when he became a casualty.   I cant see the Yorkshire’s  getting hold of him through any other means.   The Sept 1918 date narrows it down thankyou.

Thanks 

Andy

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The MM card above is confirmation for the MM being awarded whilst he was in Russia

Plus, if you look at his Gazette entry he falls within a block of MM awards entitled "Archangel Command" and includes MMs to men who were also serving in units that were out in Russia e.g. 6/YR, 17/KLR and 10/RS.

Regards

Russ

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If you look at his Yorkshire Regiment medal roll you will spot that there is a batch of men all in numerical-surname alphabetical order going from 63970 Ashby to 64018 Wake - so around 50 men.

You could look for service records for any of these men to explore where they were transferred and perhaps the circumstances of their transfer - e.g. were they men recovering from wounds/sickness or perhaps some form of compulsory transfer in order to bring the 13/YR up to strength for their impending deployment to Russia.

Regards

Russ

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  • 2 weeks later...

Having looked at 5 men immediately bracketing Pte Musk from surviving service records a few things are of note:

All 5 were transferred to the 13th Bn Yorkshire Regiment on the 17th of Sept 1918 whilst they were in the UK.  

They were all Infantrymen who had mostly been wounded in France and recovered/ing.  They came from a mix of units.

17th Sept 1918 was the date they 13th Bn left Dundee for Murmansk. The armistice  arrived whilst they were at sea.

All were transferred under the following  authority. “ War Office telegram 358A AG5a D 6 9 18”

 Can anyone shed light on the nature of the authority? I’m presuming its simply authority to transfer men and get on with it.

Pte Musk was wounded at the Somme Battle of the Serre on 13 Nov 1916.  Either this or another latter wounding took him away from the 8th Royal Lancs and back to the UK and his later Russia posting.

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 27/01/2022 at 12:49, AndrewSid said:

TO ADD -  he was from Rawtenstall, Lancs

I couldn't resist the Rawtenstall bait Andy. 

I spent an hour in the microfiche records of the 1918/1919 Rossendale Free Press a couple of days ago in the hope of finding something on Musk.  Nothing obvious came to light although there were several wordy articles running on Russia, "Bolshoviks" and wounded prisoners being returned.  The film was dreadful as evidenced by the attached - who is an unidentified MM - but likely too young to be Musk. 

I have an appointment booked to view the original newspapers and will get back to you if I find anything relevant. 

No news will be bad news.   

Unidentified MM.jpg

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44 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

I have an appointment booked to view the original newspapers and will get back to you if I find anything relevant. 

Thanks for looking

A few service notes survive including his or the family address in Rawtenstall - 12  Hall Carr Rd   Rawtenstall - the name of the road isn’t that clear so may not be spot on.

His MM  was sent to the mayor of Rawtenstall who seemed most keen to present the medal to Musk himself. Sometime in late 1919 id say.  Poor Musk had no choice in the matter. 

He was wounded in the hand and knee on 13 Nov 1916 whilst in France. 

 

Edited by AndrewSid
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2 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

His MM  was sent to the mayor of Rawtenstall who seemed most keen to present the medal to Musk himself. Sometime in late 1919 id say.  

That's a good steer and fits with what I've seen happening. These events usually attract more than a few lines ......... and the occasional photo.  

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  • AndrewSid changed the title to Pte James R Musk - 1st E Lancs/8th Royal Lancs/ 13th Yorkshires -MM

To clarify the address from 1911 census - 15 Rose Vale Street, Cloughfold .  He was aged 31 in 1911.

 

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