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Remembered Today:

Marsa where?


pierssc

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This picture shows two British armed Trawlers in December 1916 - but I can't read the location except that it looks like Marsa [something] Bay.  Can anyone help me out please?  Limrig?  Limriq?  Can't identify it from Google Maps.  Different name now?  Different spelling?

One of the Trawlers is probably VERESIS (I think the one on the right), which was based at Port Said and which may at various times have been in Famagusta (Cyprus), and Malta as well as operating "off the Syrian coast".  It carried out a certain amount of intelligence work, dropping/picking up agents behind enemy lines (see L.B. Weldon's "Hard Lying") - and despite what Yigal Sheffy says in "British Military Intelligence in the Palestine Campaign" , a trawler NOT a tugboat!  It's somewhere in the Eastern Med.  But where?  It's a small enclosed rocky bay with a hill behind.

Suggestions gratefully received.

 

1227283740_V02PG19021.jpg.b33e06964a6afe9096ac4a27e6e5cd7d.jpg

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My thoughts exactly, but I can't find it.

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Prostar Sailing Directions 2005 Eastern Mediterranean Enroute

by National Geospatial-intelligence Agency, lists the following place names commencing with 'Marsa';_

MARSA AL BURAYQAH

MARSA AS SAHL

MARSA EL BREGA

MARSA SUSAH

MARSA TOBRUCH

MARSA TOBRUK

MARSA TUBRUQ

MARSA UMM ASH SHAWUSH

Edited by michaeldr
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Thanks for the suggestions Michael.  But those are all destination port, whereas this just looks like a small out-of-the-way bay that may still only be a small out-of-the-way bay, but maybe with a different name.  On the other hand according to wordhippo.com, "Marsa" can mean various things to do with mooring and anchors.  I'll probably find it just means "little anchorage" or something!

 

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I am wondering whether the writer mis-heard the name, and it was actually Mers-el-something, or a variant spelling of Maltese Marsaxlokk, or similar.

Too many options!

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@seaJaneeasily!  But I'm interested in your Maltese suggestion... I'll have a look round the coast of Malta for something of the right shape!

EDIT! Hang on, come to think of it he was in command and had an Extra-Master's ticket, so he would probably have done the navigating and had a chart which may well have had the name on it.

Edited by pierssc
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And the names might have been in an older form than is accessible on Google Maps. Might be worth sending the query to the UK Hydrographic Office enquiries line.

 

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Thanks for that sJ, I didn't know they had one.   I think I'm going to have to see if they have some sort of index as I'm not sure how many 15 minute units of someone looking at map I can afford if all I can say is that I think the name looks Arabic!

Yes, the name of the place may have changed multiple times with political changes in the region, depending, of course, exactly where it is!

Malta and nearby islands looked quite promising but an initial sweep of the coasts via Satellite view for a bay of this kind drew a blank, and ditto the Red Sea.  But I think there are quite large parts of my general area of interest where the coast is fairly sandy and the hinterland flat, whereas the coast in this photo is quite rocky and the bay fairly distinctive.

 

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The Maltese government archives have lots of old maps on line. I was looking at some that show coast line between two Marsas but although there are some nicecovez I could not make it fit. I did note a place in Malta that had a name L- Imb..... but it is not the same. However it does emphasise the spelling possibilities.

I'll try and give you links so you can dismiss this idea!

Maltese archive: 

"Towns & Villages of Malta - 1938 to 1940 - The National Archives of Malta" http://arkivji.org.mt/atom2/index.php/towns-villages-of-malta-1938-to-1940-1

Edit if you select a map then scroll down and click on URL and you get the detailed map.

Edited by charlie962
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All grist to the mill Charlie, thanks.  I have actually found a place called L-Imriek on the north side of Comino (tiny island off Malta) with a "Blue Lagoon" nearby but not the right shape I think.

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Bit left field this one:blink:

 I read this thread yeterday but I have just been watching the 1967 film Tobruk on Film 4 and at the beginning they set out the plan on a real German map of Tobruk-they end by saying they will be evacuated from "Mersa Bay" to the east of Tobruk. A quick look at the background shows this was based on partial true story-see here: https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/04/21/the-special-interrogation-group-sig-part/
The WW2 place name was Marsa umm esc-sciausc now known as Marsá Umm ash Shāwush (see Michael's post above). http://www.getamap.net/maps/libya/tubruq/_ummashshawush_marsa/ . Can't see the name variations in the title on the photo. It may be the trawlers were involved in the Senussi campaign at this point but Tobruk area seems too far west? Old map and GoogleEarth attached-tried oblique view and it is possible:huh:

 

cheers

Dom.

PS I think Marsa or Mersa is Arabic for bay or anchorage.

marsa.JPG

mersa2.jpg

Edited by domsim
more stuff
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4 minutes ago, domsim said:

Not convinced by my own post the more I look at it and the original photograph

But you have made the point about Marsa widely used as an anchorage.

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going back to that map link I posted, which shows Wolseley Battery,

Wolseley Battery (Maltese: Batterija ta' Wolseley) is an artillery battery in Delimara, Marsaxlokk, Malta. It was built by the British between 1897 and 1899 ...

My bold type

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2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Map 50426 was the one I was looking at as an example of a cove.

"PDM50426.jpg (837×732)" https://arkivji.org.mt/share/Plans/PDM50426.jpg

Thanks Charlie.  Shape's good, but geology and elevations not so good.

For once there is a recent photo nearby:

https://goo.gl/maps/o5RTsP1pxiUdeorw7

I'm looking for a cove with a fairly steep-sided and reasonably tall cliff on the left, inclining gently down towards a stubby point; on the right a slightly lower cliff, not going quite so far out to see as that on the left, with a pointy bit jutting out.  The geology looks like rocks, or rocks and loose material.  Inland from the vessels it is difficult to see what is on the shore; it may be that the land rises quickly, and then more gently; vegetation looks quite scrubby.  The photo is taken from a much higher elevation though than the two headlands.

New messages have popped in from you and @domsim... let me take a look

 

EDIT: amended link

Edited by pierssc
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Dom, many thanks for the suggestions.  The trouble with Libya is the lack of photos to see what it looks like on the ground!  But I don't feel it's the right shape - mine is more of a wineglass shape, so to speak - although we don't know what exactly is hidden by the foreground.

I think "Marsa" may only be sort of helping us - if it is used in Arabic and Maltese as a general term for an anchorage, it is possible that the second part of the name (the bit that's difficult to read) is actually the more significant.  But that does help a bit because it means it limits it to places where those languages are or were spoken - Malta and islands, Libya, Egypt, the Red Sea and environs, the coast of Palestine, and Lebanon.  VERESIS was operating off Asia Minor in 1917/18.  I think the title looks as if 1917 was written originally, corrected to 1916.  If it is 1916 it is more likely to be somewhere like Malta.  If it is 1917 we know VERESIS and MANAGEM went to Karatash (Karatas) which is on the coast of Turkey due south of Adana that December.  The next morning they steamed along the coast looking for a suitable landing place for future (spy dropping) work, and then sailed to Latakia.  Having the advantage of my original scan I don't think the other vessel is MANAGEM (a requisitioned steam yacht) though - they both look like trawlers.  I prefer the 1916 date, which looks as if it was inked on top of 1917. 

My gut feeling is that the Turks have been in Turkey a long time, and the Arabs weren't, as far as I know, so we are unlikely to find a Mersa place-name there, unless Turkish borrowed the Arabic word and it has since been Turk-ised.    Which leaves Egypt, Red Sea, Libya, and Palestine and Lebanon.  And Malta, which speaks (as I learn from Wikipedia) a language derived from Arabic. 

Wherever it is, it is either (a) in an Allied zone, and they went ashore for a hike knowing they were unlikely to be attacked by anyone, or (b) in an enemy zone, but remote enough for two trawlers to anchor there and for the Commanding officer of one to go ashore and climb a hill.  Which I know sounds flippant but there may have been very good reasons for doing so.  On balance, I'm going to keep looking round Malta.

 

21 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

We have facial recognition, surely there is coastal recognition software???!!

I wish!

@charlie962 how did you get into the map/chart bit of the Maltese archives please?  I'm not making much progress there.

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25 minutes ago, pierssc said:

went to Karatash (Karatas) which is on the coast of Turkey due south of Adana that December.  The next morning they steamed along the coast looking for a suitable landing place for future (spy dropping) work, and then sailed to Latakia.

The sort of work that HMYacht Zaida was doing when she hit a French mine off Alexandretta Aug 1916. (there is a thread on this event on the forum that I have contributed to in the past).

Charlie

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That's it, and I followed that thread with interest.  The work was continued by MANAGEM in the south, and VERESIS in the north, until DEVANEY (a former Channel Island ferry, ss DEVONIA) took over VERESIS work in the first part of 1918. 

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6 minutes ago, pierssc said:

That's it, and I followed that thread with interest.  The work was continued by MANAGEM in the south, and VERESIS in the north, until DEVANEY (a former Channel Island ferry, ss DEVONIA) took over VERESIS work in the first part of 1918. 

There was a bit of a fuss about Woolley acting outside of naval control so I presume that was not allowed to happen again.

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L.B. Weldon's "Hard Lying" is my background book - or at least the second half is.  As I think I understand it, ZAIDA was sunk and Woolley captured, and Weldon (who was army, but had originally been working for the Egyptian government) got the job of dropping and picking up agents for EMSIB (army intelligence) in vessels provided by the Navy commanded by RNR officers.  Another army officer, Salter, did the same from Famagusta, though sometimes they worked together.  

Edited by pierssc
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Zaida had a naval crew but Woolley tended to do his own thing. The Navy said that if he had better liaised with them then he would have known about the French minefield and perhaps avoided the disaster that claimed so many of the crew. But they would say that, wouldn't they? Dangerous work and perhaps required a certain independence and dash to carry it out, without going too far and risking recklessness. Woolley had the luxury of Lord Rosebury's private yacht, a little better than most.

I've always preferred reading about Naval small boat actions rather than cruiser/battleship affairs. The RN in Mespot effectively replaced the cavalry.

But I am wandering...

15 minutes ago, pierssc said:

L.B. Weldon's "Hard Lying"

Not read it yet.

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  • 5 months later...

The dock area at the top of Grand Harbour , Valletta, Malta is  called Marsa  but looks nothing like the bay in the photo,  and I can't relate any other bit of the Malta coastline to the photo,

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