Unidentified rank and unit inscribed on War Medal

[2470pte]

I was shown last night a war medal and victory medal inscribed with the following

18931 TRFG-INS W.H. BOYD MESO.RYG

The soldiers name is W.H. BOYD however the rank, regiment or unit I cannot work out. I've checked the number against medal cards and can find nothing that matches and against records. 

Any help in establishing some facts would be greatly appreciated. 

Kind regards,

John 

[tootrock]

There was a John Boyd with the number S/18931 in the Seaforth Highlanders and 7356 in the Labour Corps.

Martin

[ss002d6252]

29 minutes ago, 2470pte said:

I was shown last night a war medal and victory medal inscribed with the following

18931 TRFG-INS W.H. BOYD MESO.RYG

The soldiers name is W.H. BOYD however the rank, regiment or unit I cannot work out. I've checked the number against medal cards and can find nothing that matches and against records. 

Any help in establishing some facts would be greatly appreciated. 

Kind regards,

John 

Have you a picture of the inscription, as it does seem very odd.

Craig

[charlie962]

Odd for him to have a service number then rank and unit that seem civil.

I am thinking inspector mesopotamia railways or some such.

Charlie

[petwes]

I wonder if it is Mesopotamian Railways?  The nearest vague match I can find is a Floyd A. M. 18067.

Peter

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, petwes said:

I wonder if it is Mesopotamian Railways?  The nearest vague match I can find is a Floyd A. M. 18067.

Peter

Possibly.  See this man "British War and Victory Medals (15932 G. W. Kingham, Meso. Rys.);"
https://www.spink.com/lot/21002000131

Craig

[Neil 2242]

Yep, I would say rank could possibly be TRFC-INS - traffic inspector and unit MESO RYS - Mesopotamia Railways.

 

Edited 14 January , 2022 by Neil 2242

[petwes]

I can't find a MIC for Kingham 15932.  I wonder if the records are incomplete for Mesopotamian railways?

Peter

[charlie962]

42 minutes ago, petwes said:

I can't find a MIC for Kingham 15932.  I wonder if the records are incomplete for Mesopotamian railways?

Peter

Sadly that seems to be the way with a significant chunk of men from the Indian volunteers. Ancestry have those partial rolls but where are the rest- perhaps to be discovered at the Nat Archives in India? There was a thread on this last year?

Charlie

[corisande]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

"British War and Victory Medals (15932 G. W. Kingham, Meso. Rys.)

Craig,

Those are WW2 medals, so it is not possible to tell if they we awarded in WW1 for similar work

We could debate the issue of the inscription, but until we see it and the medal they are on , it is really whistling in the dark.

@MaureenE has stuff on Mespot Railways on fibis, so may be able to help

and @2470pte needs to return with the photo of the medals

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

WW2

No. The bwm VM are named Mespot railways.

[charlie962]

On ancestry medal rolls ww1 for India there are only 4 or 5 names that come up if you put mesopotamian railways as keywords. Three are officers. So a lot are missing. Having looked in vain the other day for a Bombay Volunteer, despite finding the roll for those who stayed in India I couldn't find the man who went to Mespot.

Charlie 

[FROGSMILE]

I don’t think he would be included in military records, he sounds like a civil servant engaged in the war effort within a theatre of operations and so eligible for the relevant campaign medals providing he falls within the boundaries usually set in order to include ports of entry and lines of communication forward to the combat zone.  The same applied during WW2 and still does today.  Ergo he does not have a rank nor a unit, but usually a grade (appointment) and organisation.

Edited 14 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Possibly.  See this man "British War and Victory Medals (15932 G. W. Kingham, Meso. Rys.);"
https://www.spink.com/lot/21002000131

Craig

If this is the same man - certainly a connection with Indian railways.  I suspect W.H. Boyd looking for someone also from/based in  India

[ss002d6252]

I think it has to be the same man.

Craig

[charlie962]

45 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

don’t think he would be included in military records, he sounds like a civil servant

But he has a service number. All those in India will have belonged to a  volunteer unit, AFI, in this case a Railway battalion. My ggf was Bengal and NorthWestern Railway Volunteer Rifles but for a while attached to Scottish Rifles. All very difficult to follow at times.

Charlie

 

 

[petwes]

Searching WO372 for references to Meso* returns 155 records all Mesopotamian Railway.  There are military ranks and also "civilian" occupations like guard or inspector. The MIC's look different from normal here's a sample of the card for Floyd I mentioned earlier. 

155 seems a low number, I would agree with the earlier comment that possibly not all the records made it back to blighty.

Peter

[TEW]

The only pair roll I can see in the Index to Units to railways is WO329/3208 which is on Ancestry.

If he's not in there I don't think his roll is at TNA/Ancestry.

TEW

[petwes]

35 minutes ago, TEW said:

The only pair roll I can see in the Index to Units to railways is WO329/3208 which is on Ancestry.

If he's not in there I don't think his roll is at TNA/Ancestry.

TEW

I can't see any medal rolls relating to Mesopotamia in WO329 at the National Archives. Still in India? 

Peter

[TEW]

The one I quoted is the only one for Railway Transport. From previous posts it seems unlikely there are Mespot rolls at TNA but the same reference is also given for India Office, exactly what's in the roll I can't say.

TEW

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, petwes said:

I can't see any medal rolls relating to Mesopotamia in WO329 at the National Archives. Still in India? 

Peter

There are some on ancestry, even railways. Eg try Lt John Aiton Bell.

Another:

Mister A McIntosh RAOC which is on a roll for civilians.

You may be amused by the unit of the man at the top of the page: "medical consultant in lunacy for the Egyptian Command". Clearly a full time job.

[2470pte]

 

I have messaged the gent who is in possession of the medals and I'm waiting for photographs of the engraving on the edge, attached is a photograph of the medals and miniatures for information and confirmation.

 

[2470pte]

[2470pte]

I hope the above pictures help with working out his rank and unit, cheers John.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

But he has a service number. All those in India will have belonged to a  volunteer unit, AFI, in this case a Railway battalion. My ggf was Bengal and NorthWestern Railway Volunteer Rifles but for a while attached to Scottish Rifles. All very difficult to follow at times.

Charlie

 

 

Yes I agree it’s not clear cut charlie, but the important aspect to me is that neither his ‘rank’ nor his job description/appointment/status is remotely military.  He might well be from a ‘railway battalion’, but then I would expect his military ‘unit’ and his ‘rank’ within it to be inscribed on the medal IF he was operating in a military, as opposed to civilian capacity.

NB.  The serial number might be a civil service identification?

 

Edited 14 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE