Multiple Questions about Gallipoli

[tankengine888]

G'day!
I should've split this, but easier this way.
Questions are:
1. How hot was it in Celsius (Before winter)

2. Was the Lewis Gun or Vickers gun used?

3. Was the campaign plagued with incompetence? (except for a few good latter Generals)

4. Was Chunuk Bair actually the highest spot on the peninsula captured? (even briefly)

5. Were there any MIA soldiers (who still are) I recall there was a boat that got captured.. soldiers never seen again.

6. Was the August 6-7th attacks at the Nek, Lone Pine and up Chunuk Bair (Suvla Bay landing don't forget) from a standpoint, worth it?

Cheers if you answer a couple or few!
 

[Keith_history_buff]

Missing in action.

Out of 6,092 French who were missing in action, only 45 soldiers were positively identified as being POWs in Turkish captivity. I believe there were complaints about the treatment of POWs, but the British wanted Turkey as a friend after hostilities, so did not pursue this. I believe it's a similar scenario with FEPOW atrocities, and MacArthur not wanting this to interfere with detente with a reconstitutued Japan after 1945. 

There is a thread about Allied POWs within the Gallipoli subcategory of this forum.

[MikeyH]

Q2   Both Vickers and Lewis guns used.

Mike.

[tankengine888]

3 minutes ago, MikeyH said:

Q2   Both Vickers and Lewis guns used.

Mike.

I thought the Lewis gun was used!
But I always have doubts on anything I think. Cheers

 

6 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Missing in action.

Out of 6,092 French who were missing in action, only 45 soldiers were positively identified as being POWs in Turkish captivity. I believe there were complaints about the treatment of POWs, but the British wanted Turkey as a friend after hostilities, so did not pursue this. I believe it's a similar scenario with FEPOW atrocities, and MacArthur not wanting this to interfere with detente with a reconstitutued Japan after 1945. 

There is a thread about Allied POWs within the Gallipoli subcategory of this forum.

I see! Cheers!

[Keith_history_buff]

I have not seen any photographs of the Lewis gun at Gallipoli, and do not believe it was used there, but was being introduced in early 1916 on the Western Front, it having been approved for service with the British Army in October 1915.

[Jeff Pickerd]

Question 1. - The hottest month was August with an average temperature of around 30 C (85 F). The Gallipoli summer was from June, July, August, judging by comments made from the ranks of the 8th Light Horse Regiment, of which a number speak of it getting hotter around the middle of July, but none seem to complain of it being overbearingly hot, just that the flies had become worse.

Question 2. The Lewis gun, No, not by the ANZAC forces. It was issued to the Light Horse Regiments in Egypt towards the end of December, 1916, but replaced by the Hotchkiss gun in early April of that year.

The Vickers machine Gun was used through out the Gallipoli campaign, but in saying that, at first it was the Vickers Maxim gun, the modern Vickers Mark 1 being brought into service towards the end of the campaign.

Question 3. There have been volumes written on that question since the end of the war. You will need to do further reading to decide what answer you prefer.

Question 4. Yes.

Question 5. All those who fell between the lines and whose bodies were never recovered were listed as Missing in Action, and usually later noted as ‘presumed killed’. All cemeteries on Gallipoli have graves for unidentified bodies, with or with out headstones. The Nek Cemetery is an example of this.

Question 6. The August campaign was the last attempt to gain the advantage over the Turkish hold of the heights, whether it was worth it, or not, was judged by those coming afterwards, it happened and no amount of conjecture can change it, therefore it is consigned to history as it happened.

Jeff

[tankengine888]

36 minutes ago, Jeff Pickerd said:

Question 1. - The hottest month was August with an average temperature of around 30 C (85 F). The Gallipoli summer was from June, July, August, judging by comments made from the ranks of the 8th Light Horse Regiment, of which a number speak of it getting hotter around the middle of July, but none seem to complain of it being overbearingly hot, just that the flies had become worse.

Question 2. The Lewis gun, No, not by the ANZAC forces. It was issued to the Light Horse Regiments in Egypt towards the end of December, 1916, but replaced by the Hotchkiss gun in early April of that year.

The Vickers machine Gun was used through out the Gallipoli campaign, but in saying that, at first it was the Vickers Maxim gun, the modern Vickers Mark 1 being brought into service towards the end of the campaign.

Question 3. There have been volumes written on that question since the end of the war. You will need to do further reading to decide what answer you prefer.

Question 4. Yes.

Question 5. All those who fell between the lines and whose bodies were never recovered were listed as Missing in Action, and usually later noted as ‘presumed killed’. All cemeteries on Gallipoli have graves for unidentified bodies, with or with out headstones. The Nek Cemetery is an example of this.

Question 6. The August campaign was the last attempt to gain the advantage over the Turkish hold of the heights, whether it was worth it, or not, was judged by those coming afterwards, it happened and no amount of conjecture can change it, therefore it is consigned to history as it happened.

Jeff

Cheers for answering all the questions in one go!
It basically summarizes the other blokes answers and proves the Lewis was not used.
Quick Question, the 8th LH, didn't it only have 1/3rd of it's members left after the attacks in August?

[Andrew Upton]

4 hours ago, Jeff Pickerd said:

...The Vickers machine Gun was used through out the Gallipoli campaign, but in saying that, at first it was the Vickers Maxim gun, the modern Vickers Mark 1 being brought into service towards the end of the campaign...

The MkI Vickers gun was officially adopted by the War Department in late 1912 - at the outbreak of war in 1914 there were already over 100 taken into service, and by the end of 1914 that figure had been increased to almost 450. Though statistically outnumbered by the older style Maxims in the early part of the war they were present at Gallipoli from the start of the campaign and in ever increasing numbers thereafter as their production was ramped up (and Maxim production allowed to dwindle away).

[Guest]

Mate,

Its a strange question but one that can be easy or hard.

Source say we lost 372 men from around 600 engaged, from the 8th and 10th Regts.

I looked at this from another view went checking our loss at 2nd Gaza 19 April 1917

The Camel Bde lost some 374 men and the worst hit the 2nd Camel Company who lost 15 killed 75 wounded and 10 PoW's

So some 100 men from a company in the field of around 105 men.

figures don't always tell the whole story

S.B

 

[Jeff Pickerd]

As Steve has noted, it is difficult to put an actual ratio of unit strength of the 8th LH Regt after the charge, there a number of factors that have be taken into consideration, e.g. men away sick, those away from the regiment on other duties, and reinforcements recently arrived.

For actual recorded numbers the 3rd LH Bde war diary records on the 31st July (7 days before the charge) - 433 men in Hospital sick, 195 sent away wounded, 15 in lines sick, a total of 195 away from duty. Effective strength 1180, of whom a large proportion are sick. On the 5th August the 8th LH received 45 reinforcements.

The 8th LH Daily State on the 6th August puts its strength as 19 officers and 431 other ranks, a total strength of 450. The first and second lines of the charge was to have 150 men per line. Major McLaurin of the 8th recoded 18 officers and 318 OR’s went out in 1st & 2nd lines, 160 were killed & 80 wounded.

The 8th LH war diary gives - killed - 22 officers and men, wounded - 76, missing - 127. Those figures do not reflect the number of men who died of wounds, and those subsequently listed as KIA. Taking that into consideration the KIA figure was 169, and wounded 65. That would put the Regiments strength as 216 officers and men after the charge.

Of the 602 officers and men of the 8th LH Regt who embarked from Melbourne on the 15th February 1915, 138 were killed, 164 wounded, and 80 evacuated sick during the Gallipoli campaign. 

Jeff

[Guest]

Mate,

Yes as Jeff said, I was going to add more but cut it off.

But as shown by Jeff the figures don't always tell the story.

The 2nd Company reported with around 60 men two days later, I wondered if the company was wiped out in the fighting where did the men come from?

Of cause they include those LoB (left out of battle). All units around this time in the war did this, in the 2Co case, the camel holders, around 40 men (1 in 4 were used in mounted units to hold the animals in battle).

Then a small HQ group under the Company 2ic with odds and sods

Also not all the 75 men wounded were serious, many were minor wounds who need only little medical help, before RTU (return to unit).

The last Company roll check showed

8 April 1917 - 2nd Company (6 officers 160 men 4 natives 205 camels)

A Composite Company it shown on the 1 May 1917 as

Comp Co (2Co & 3Co) under Capt Campbell (4 officers and 152 men 191 camels)

Of that number the last report for 3Co was 2 officers and 89 men dated 26 April 1917

So the 2nd Company had around 2 officers 64 men

I could go on for hours, but you get the point, figures don't always tell the story

S.B

[emrezmen]

1. Around 30-35 in the summer.

2. Lewis was not used at Gallipoli. However, it was used extensively on the other Ottoman fronts.

3. Yes. 3rd Krithia, attacks on 12-13 July, August Offensive. There were examples of utter incompetence on the Ottoman side as well (e.g. night attacks in May, especially the one on 19 May).

4. Yes. I would call it "reached," though. 

5. There were MIA on both sides. Some families in Turkey continued their search until 40s.

 6. To some extent, yes. I think the Allies needed to push their luck for a manoeuvre, to see what's round the corner. But the other attempts made late in the month (Hill 60, Scimitar Hill, Kireçtepe) was definitely not.

 

Edited 15 January , 2022 by emrezmen