What is a “Conductor” in the “Army remount depot” India?

[Jervis]

I hoping someone can help me out here. I am interested in establishing more information about Thomas Godwin’s (born in Clonsilla, Dublin, 1877) army career. According to his 1921 census entry, he spent 26 years in the Army to that date. Therefore enlisting circa 1895 at 18 years and discharging at date unknown to me. He died in Portsmouth in 1943. 

From the records I have found, it indicates he was a “Conductor” in a “Army remount depot” in India. His service number is #3410. He was in India doing this role doing this since at least 1912 and is on 1921 census doing the same. He seems to have been awarded a British medal but no victory medal, which I assume means he never served in a theatre of war. 

So questions are:

(A)What is the rank of “Conductor” and what did he do?

(B) His unit seems to be “Army remount Depot”. What type of unit is this? 

(C) Why was he not sent to the war. Was he too old at 37 years in 1914? 

(D) On the 1908 enlistment papers of his younger brother William Godwin it refers to Thomas as being “Attached Indian Army”. What does this actually mean? 

(E) if he did enlist in 1895, I am assuming he had service with other units prior to the Army remount Depot & possibly service in the Boer war. Any ideas how I could find that out? 

Thanks in advance for any help. 

Jervis

 

Edited 8 January , 2022 by Jervis

[Jervis]

[charlie962]

48 minutes ago, Jervis said:

(A)What is the rank of “Conductor” and what did he do?

You could do worse than read wiki herehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductor_(military_appointment)

48 minutes ago, Jervis said:

(B) His unit seems to be “Army remount Depot”. What type of unit is this? 

Providing horses for the Army. There is a recent extensive thread on this forum discussing the history.

48 minutes ago, Jervis said:

C) Why was he not sent to the war. Was he too old at 37 years in 1914

Maybe a bit worn but more likely he was most useful to war effort in this role.

Edited 8 January , 2022 by charlie962

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

4 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

You could do worse than read wiki here

Providing horses for the Army. There is a recent extensive thread on this forum discussing the history.

Maybe a bit worn but more likely he was most useful to war effort in this role.

A bit of a circular link I'm afraid Charlie..

[charlie962]

46 minutes ago, Jervis said:

3410

I suggest that reads 2410

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

circular

Corrected thanks

[FROGSMILE]

On 08/01/2022 at 22:18, Jervis said:

I hoping someone can help me out here. I am interested in establishing more information about Thomas Godwin’s (born in Clonsilla, Dublin, 1877) army career. According to his 1921 census entry, he spent 26 years in the Army to that date. Therefore enlisting circa 1895 at 18 years and discharging at date unknown to me. He died in Portsmouth in 1943. 

From the records I have found, it indicates he was a “Conductor” in a “Army remount depot” in India. His service number is #3410. He was in India doing this role doing this since at least 1912 and is on 1921 census doing the same. He seems to have been awarded a British medal but no victory medal, which I assume means he never served in a theatre of war. 

So questions are:

(A)What is the rank of “Conductor” and what did he do?

(B) His unit seems to be “Army remount Depot”. What type of unit is this? 

(C) Why was he not sent to the war. Was he too old at 37 years in 1914? 

(D) On the 1908 enlistment papers of his younger brother William Godwin it refers to Thomas as being “Attached Indian Army”. What does this actually mean? 

(E) if he did enlist in 1895, I am assuming he had service with other units prior to the Army remount Depot & possibly service in the Boer war. Any ideas how I could find that out? 

Thanks in advance for any help. 

Jervis

 

A.  Conductors were at that time stores (materiel) and consumables specialists and a separate (stand alone) position between other ranks and officers, in the sense that they took the same position as subalterns when formed up on parade, but remained “other ranks” (ORs).  They were among the very first warrant officers in the British Army after having been so successful beforehand with that status in the employ of the Honourable East India Company.  They often worked hand in glove with the Master Gunners, who held a similar high status, but without the quasi-officerlike standing.  Conductors had to be highly numerate and understand very throroughtly the commissariat’s (a HM Treasury agency) stringent requirements for stores accounting procedures.  They also had to understand optimum ambient storage requirements for different types of stores, such as [gun]powder, woollen clothing, horse harness and other leatherwork, wagons and guns, forage, water, and all types of rations.  In the British Army they were primarily within (badged to) the Army Ordance Corps, and in the Indian Army its direct equivalent, the Supply and Transport Corps. 

B.  Remount Units we’re responsible for finding all types of equine livestock for cavalry, artillery and logistics.  They specialised in selecting and providing the best types of draught animal for light and heavy towed vehicles and guns, and decent troop horses for mounted infantry and cavalry.  They took a particular interest in breeding and associated bloodlines, working closely with the veterinary services in that process, as well as breaking in yearlings for use.

C.  In the prewar regular army 37 was considered a relatively advanced age for active service and on average most men had become unfit for the rigours of campaigning by the age of 40, which was the average age for men to retire who had enlisted at 18.  Also, as a specialist, he could be retained wherever he was considered the most useful.  Conductors were inevitably older men by the time they had advanced to that position.

D.  British SNCOs in the service support corps (essentially logistics) were encouraged (and keen to) become attached to the Indian Army in specialised roles where they had the chance of accelerated promotion.  All conductors in the Indian Army came from this (white European) source in peacetime. They were administered on a separate, nominal roll, called the ‘Indian Army Unattached List’**, where they could remain until either, returning to their parent corps, or retirement, whichever came first.

E.  Conductors (and specialist SNCOs) on the Indian Army Unattached List invariably came from other corps previously, just as you’ve surmised.  These could range from the Artillery (usually the Master Gunners roll), the Army Ordnance Corps, the Army Service Corps, and sometimes from the cavalry.  Ex Infantry appointees were not at all common.   To research their origins the best person to advise you is @MaureenE whose knowledge of Indian Army historical details, including archived Lists, is in my opinion unsurpassed in this forum.

NB.  Irishmen were reputed as being some of the very best judges of horseflesh that the then U.K. could offer so it’s not at all surprising that he was working for a remount depot.

**This should not be confused with the Unattached List operated by the British Army that related exclusively to commissioned officers.

Edited 8 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Have you checked the Indian Army Lists via archive.org which will list Conductors. Won't give previous unit but will give some useful dates.

[charlie962]

Frogsmile, we had a discussion about Conductors not so long ago on this thread:https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/267612-maurice-mcnamara-dcm-who-is-he-royal-west-kent-and-india/#comment-2711314

Edited 8 January , 2022 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

Frogsmile, we had a discussion about Conductors not so long ago on this thread:http://"Maurice McNamara DCM -who is he ? Royal West Kent and India - Page 2 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/267612-maurice-mcnamara-dcm-who-is-he-royal-west-kent-and-india/page/2/#comment-2985870

The link won’t open charlie?

[FROGSMILE]

Found it charlie.  For @Jervis: 

 

checkout Maureene’s advice.

[charlie962]

I've not mastered the technology yet.

It was a thread on a McNamara

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

I've not mastered the technology yet.

It was a thread on a McNamara

Yes I’ve linked it in my post just above.

Edited 8 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenE]

As mentioned by charlie962 you can follow him in the online Indian Army Lists.These are linked from the FIBIS Fibiwiki page "Indian Army List online" https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Indian_Army_List_online

There are some records at the British Library for the Unattached List, but given he is a Conductor and appears in the India Army List,  I suspect the records at the British Library probably wouldn't provide much additional information. However, I have no specific knowledge on this point. The FIBIS Fibiwki page "Unattached List" gives further details. https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Unattached_List. There is also a link to a page which has more information about Conductors.

Maureen

 

[FROGSMILE]

@Jervis did you get all that, was it sufficient for your purposes?

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

@Jervis did you get all that, was it sufficient for your purposes?

Yes, indeed. A lot of information to go over. Thank you all for the detailed responses; I am only getting a good opportunity to review this properly now. 

Not overly surprising he was working with horses - he like his father and brothers was a groom in civilian life - but I am  impressed he climbed to a very senior WO role. Good on him!

Thanks Jervis. 

 

[Jervis]

17 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I suggest that reads 2410

It is a little unclear on the image I posted, but he also has a standard MIC record which more clearly shows 3410. 

[charlie962]

12 minutes ago, Jervis said:

clearly

Agreed. There is a mistranscription on FMP that led me astray!

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, Jervis said:

Yes, indeed. A lot of information to go over. Thank you all for the detailed responses; I am only getting a good opportunity to review this properly now. 

Not overly surprising he was working with horses - he like his father and brothers was a groom in civilian life - but I am  impressed he climbed to a very senior WO role. Good on him!

Thanks Jervis. 

 

Yes he did very well indeed, to the absolute top of the tree for a soldier.  He would have been an interesting man to talk to I think.  I imagine that the role of a Conductor with such an equine focused unit would have been very specialised.

Edited 9 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

I see the British Library has a fat file 16 volumes headed Indian Army Remounts. But not online..

"Indian Army Remount Department | The National Archives" https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b25c25be-3c78-4399-ba93-e812b59d8788

 

@MaureenE have you come across this in your extensive travels?

Edited 9 January , 2022 by charlie962

[davidbohl]

This article mentions "sub-conductors" being  equivalent to WO in the British Army.

Dave

From the BNA

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 09/01/2022 at 18:22, davidbohl said:

This article mentions "sub-conductors" being  equivalent to WO in the British Army.

Dave

From the BNA

 

Yes, interestingly Conductors were divided into two grades, both of which fell within the rank tier of WOI.  The Master Gunners, too, had two grades (classes) in the same arrangement (with a 3rd class ranking as a staff sergeant and later (after a reorganisation in 1915) WOII.  Finally, the Army Service Corps and Army Pay Corps, both had Staff Sergeant Majors 1st and 2nd Class that also fell within the Army rank band of WOI (direct counterparts of the Conductor and Sub-Conductor).  All of the second levels have been swept away since WW2**, and in the case of Master Gunners, there is now just the one level, which is within the WOI tier.

**The third level in the other corps mentioned were also staff sergeants, but as QMS (in the case of ASC & APC - Staff Quarter-Master Sergeant (SQMS)), who after 1915, all became WOII as mentioned above.

Edited 8 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenE]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I see the British Library has a fat file 16 volumes headed Indian Army Remounts. But not online..

"Indian Army Remount Department | The National Archives" https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b25c25be-3c78-4399-ba93-e812b59d8788

 

@MaureenE have you come across this in your extensive travels?

No, but I see the catalog entry refers to various publications in the India Office Military Library, so they are printed reports etc, including IOR/L/MIL/17/5/2180 1911 Remount manual (war) India. Calcutta: Army Dept, 1911 and IOR/L/MIL/17/5/2181 1924 Remount manual (war) India, 1924. Calcutta: Army Dept, 1924. Nothing specific for the First  World War period, but perhaps nothing much changed between 1911 and 1924.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/495c7d54-61b8-432c-bcbd-829c8291a47b

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, MaureenE said:

perhaps nothing much changed between 1911 and 1924.

Maureen

You surmised absolutely correctly in that regard.  Even for mobilised mounted units in 1939 the majority of detail regarding specifically equine matters was largely unchanged.

Edited 10 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Thank you Maureen. So probably documentation on the structure but not on individuals.

Charlie