Cyril Sayers - 18th Welsh Regiment

[condronjames]

Hi all

I’m looking for information on behalf of a friend of mine about his uncle - Cyril Ernest Sayers. Cyril served with the 18th Welsh Regiment and was killed on 13 April 1918. His name is on the Ploegsteert Memorial. Cyril had two brothers - Eldred and Harry, who also served. I’m told that Harry died of wounds in 1929. 
 

Any further information about Cyril (or his two brothers) would be greatly appreciated. Does anyone know what the 18th Welsh would have been doing on the day Cyril was killed?

Thanks

James 

 

[ss002d6252]

He was originally reported missing, his wife later getting a widow's pension.


https://www.fold3.com/image/669549100?terms=welsh,cyril,sayers

Craig

[condronjames]

Thank you for this. Very much appreciated 

[PRC]

The Battalion War Diary can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive once you sign in. The relevant period can be found in their catalogue here:- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354282

The 18th Battalion were then part of the 40th Division, and were involved in the battle around Hazebrouck at the time of his death. Following the battle the Division had such such significant casualties that it was reduced to a cadre, as was the 18th Battalion.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website shows 74 fatal casualties for the 18th Battalion on this day - significant enough when a Battalion was at full strength, but many Battalions of the period strugged to muster 500 men. Most have no known grave, while a few were recovered from the battlefield post-war. For example an unknown Lieutenant of the Welst Regiment was found in 1928 at map reference Sheet 36. N.2.c.9.2. and was subsequently identified as Second Lieutenant Walter Percy Garner of the 18th Battalion. If you check out his CWGC webpage you will see there is a Concentration and Special Exhumation Report attached. Looking at the detail in the latter I suspect he was buried by the Germans. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/279379/

Nothing in the records of the International Committee of the Red Cross to indicate they heard anything from the German authorities.

The concentration report on the CWGC webpage for Private 27954 H. Jones shows the Germans buried him on the battlefied at map reference Sheet 36 N.23.c.6.6. They probably found him on the battlefield as their grave marker said he died on the 9th. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/303385/

While the C.W.G.C. webpage of Lance-Corporal 27787 R.T. Thomas doesn't have a Concentration report it does have a Special Exhumation Report showing he was one of 6 unknown soldiers recovered from one grave in June 1921 and who was subsequently identified from his recovered disc. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/292376/

Some of the others with known graves may have died of wounds, which may have been incurred on earlier days, but I've not delved into that.

Although it deals solely with the Australian involvement in the battle, you may be interested in this report at the Australian National Memorial website. https://sjmc.gov.au/the-battle-of-hazebrouck/

Hope that helps,
Peter

[jay dubaya]

Harry Sayers appears to have been the first of the 3 brothers to join up. Available Pension Records viewed (ancestry.co.uk) confirm his enlistment on 11th March 1913 at Hounslow where he joined the Royal Fusiliers as Private L/15534, he was posted to the 1st Battalion on 29th May 1913. arrived in France (St Nazare) with the battalion on 7th September 1914 and continued to serve with them up to 2nd December 1916. He arrived back in England the following day and was eventually discharged on 20th March 1917 as no longer fit for military service. The pension papers record tuberculosis of the lung and which is likely what eventually killed him in 1929. I note on Harry's 1914 Star Medal Roll entry there is a Private L/12243 F Sayers - another relative perhaps?

Eldred Sayers may appear to have been an early volunteer to Kitchener's call to arms and enlisted as Private GS/8711 with the Royal Fusiliers being posted overseas with the 9th (Service) Battalion on 20th July 1915. His Medal Roll entry may suggest he was wounded twice. There is also a Pension Index Card for this man which confirms his residence as Acton, sadly I do not have access to the full card so cannot comment further at present.

There are Service Records for a Cyril Sayers, born and lived in Acton, fathers name Harry. He was keen to join up as this record notes his enlistment on 19th February 1915 at Ealing. He became Drummer 4299 with the 3/8th Battalion, Middlesex Rgt.  His medical examination 4 days later is annotated with 'This man is smart and active and has special qualifications as a drummer'. Cyril spent only a few weeks in the army as he was discharged on 20th March 1915 having been irregularly enlisted - his age is given as 17 years and 1 month.

I believe Cyril attested his service during the latter months of 1915 and was called up on or shortly after 14th January 1916 when he became Private G/46953 with the Royal Fusiliers, I suspect this date may also be around his 18th Birthday. This date is confirmed by his War Gratuity payment of £9 and 10 shillings, the Soldier's Effects Register also notes death was assumed on 13th April 1918 which ties in with him being reported missing as noted above, the Royal Fusilier regimental number is noted on his Soldier's Died in the Great War entry. The next two years are somewhat hazy at present, as Cyril wasn't eligible for overseas service until he'd reached the age of 19, there is no way of knowing at present how long he stayed with the Royal Fusiliers nor which battalion his initial training was undertaken with before he found himself being transferred to the Bedfordshire Rgt.. 

In the absence of further service records for Cyril the following has been pieced together from the scant surviving records of other soldiers who share similar Welsh regimental numbers and have offered an avenue to follow. Common factors with these men were - all attested their service and all transferred from their original regiments to the 2/5th Bedfordshire Rgt most shortly after their actual enlistment and all embarked from Folkestone on 2nd January 1918 and disembarked at Boulogne, they are registered at an Infantry Brigade Depot on 3rd January. On 18th January 1918 they are all transferred to various Welsh battalions and all are renumbered.

The Medal Rolls show a transfer of 27 men from the Bedfordshire Rgt, all with near consecutive Welsh regiment numbers 56132-56172, all but two appear to have transferred from the 2/5th Battalion. However Cyril's Bedfordshire regimental number - 47940, may suggest it was issued by the 3rd Battalion around June 1916 whilst the other soldier was transferred from the 12th Battalion. I may suggest that Cyril's Welsh regimental number - 56135 was also issued on 18th January 1918. 

J                                                                                                                               

[condronjames]

On 08/01/2022 at 03:59, jay dubaya said:

Harry Sayers appears to have been the first of the 3 brothers to join up. Available Pension Records viewed (ancestry.co.uk) confirm his enlistment on 11th March 1913 at Hounslow where he joined the Royal Fusiliers as Private L/15534, he was posted to the 1st Battalion on 29th May 1913. arrived in France (St Nazare) with the battalion on 7th September 1914 and continued to serve with them up to 2nd December 1916. He arrived back in England the following day and was eventually discharged on 20th March 1917 as no longer fit for military service. The pension papers record tuberculosis of the lung and which is likely what eventually killed him in 1929. I note on Harry's 1914 Star Medal Roll entry there is a Private L/12243 F Sayers - another relative perhaps?

Eldred Sayers may appear to have been an early volunteer to Kitchener's call to arms and enlisted as Private GS/8711 with the Royal Fusiliers being posted overseas with the 9th (Service) Battalion on 20th July 1915. His Medal Roll entry may suggest he was wounded twice. There is also a Pension Index Card for this man which confirms his residence as Acton, sadly I do not have access to the full card so cannot comment further at present.

There are Service Records for a Cyril Sayers, born and lived in Acton, fathers name Harry. He was keen to join up as this record notes his enlistment on 19th February 1915 at Ealing. He became Drummer 4299 with the 3/8th Battalion, Middlesex Rgt.  His medical examination 4 days later is annotated with 'This man is smart and active and has special qualifications as a drummer'. Cyril spent only a few weeks in the army as he was discharged on 20th March 1915 having been irregularly enlisted - his age is given as 17 years and 1 month.

I believe Cyril attested his service during the latter months of 1915 and was called up on or shortly after 14th January 1916 when he became Private G/46953 with the Royal Fusiliers, I suspect this date may also be around his 18th Birthday. This date is confirmed by his War Gratuity payment of £9 and 10 shillings, the Soldier's Effects Register also notes death was assumed on 13th April 1918 which ties in with him being reported missing as noted above, the Royal Fusilier regimental number is noted on his Soldier's Died in the Great War entry. The next two years are somewhat hazy at present, as Cyril wasn't eligible for overseas service until he'd reached the age of 19, there is no way of knowing at present how long he stayed with the Royal Fusiliers nor which battalion his initial training was undertaken with before he found himself being transferred to the Bedfordshire Rgt.. 

In the absence of further service records for Cyril the following has been pieced together from the scant surviving records of other soldiers who share similar Welsh regimental numbers and have offered an avenue to follow. Common factors with these men were - all attested their service and all transferred from their original regiments to the 2/5th Bedfordshire Rgt most shortly after their actual enlistment and all embarked from Folkestone on 2nd January 1918 and disembarked at Boulogne, they are registered at an Infantry Brigade Depot on 3rd January. On 18th January 1918 they are all transferred to various Welsh battalions and all are renumbered.

The Medal Rolls show a transfer of 27 men from the Bedfordshire Rgt, all with near consecutive Welsh regiment numbers 56132-56172, all but two appear to have transferred from the 2/5th Battalion. However Cyril's Bedfordshire regimental number - 47940, may suggest it was issued by the 3rd Battalion around June 1916 whilst the other soldier was transferred from the 12th Battalion. I may suggest that Cyril's Welsh regimental number - 56135 was also issued on 18th January 1918. 

J                                                                                                                               

Thanks so much for all this. Great information. What I have since discovered is that the man killed on 13 April 1918 was in fact Harry and Eldred’s uncle (b. 1880). They did also have a brother of the same name who was born in 1898, who presumably is the drummer you refer to above.

 

James 

On 07/01/2022 at 12:48, PRC said:

The Battalion War Diary can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive once you sign in. The relevant period can be found in their catalogue here:- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354282

The 18th Battalion were then part of the 40th Division, and were involved in the battle around Hazebrouck at the time of his death. Following the battle the Division had such such significant casualties that it was reduced to a cadre, as was the 18th Battalion.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website shows 74 fatal casualties for the 18th Battalion on this day - significant enough when a Battalion was at full strength, but many Battalions of the period strugged to muster 500 men. Most have no known grave, while a few were recovered from the battlefield post-war. For example an unknown Lieutenant of the Welst Regiment was found in 1928 at map reference Sheet 36. N.2.c.9.2. and was subsequently identified as Second Lieutenant Walter Percy Garner of the 18th Battalion. If you check out his CWGC webpage you will see there is a Concentration and Special Exhumation Report attached. Looking at the detail in the latter I suspect he was buried by the Germans. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/279379/

Nothing in the records of the International Committee of the Red Cross to indicate they heard anything from the German authorities.

The concentration report on the CWGC webpage for Private 27954 H. Jones shows the Germans buried him on the battlefied at map reference Sheet 36 N.23.c.6.6. They probably found him on the battlefield as their grave marker said he died on the 9th. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/303385/

While the C.W.G.C. webpage of Lance-Corporal 27787 R.T. Thomas doesn't have a Concentration report it does have a Special Exhumation Report showing he was one of 6 unknown soldiers recovered from one grave in June 1921 and who was subsequently identified from his recovered disc. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/292376/

Some of the others with known graves may have died of wounds, which may have been incurred on earlier days, but I've not delved into that.

Although it deals solely with the Australian involvement in the battle, you may be interested in this report at the Australian National Memorial website. https://sjmc.gov.au/the-battle-of-hazebrouck/

Hope that helps,
Peter

Brilliant. Thank you Peter 

[jay dubaya]

An outside possibility may be 323628 Private Cyril E Sayers, 978th (MT) Coy, ASC. This man appears on the 1918 Absent Voters List for Lewisham, the address given is 16 Marler Street, another man at the same address is J/47920 Wilfred H Sayers, HMS Helica (for Portia)

J