Alan Howarth Posted 4 January , 2022 Posted 4 January , 2022 I have my grandfathers Attestation papers which had survived intact. My grandfather Harold was a regular soldier mobilised on the 8 August 1914 to the British Expeditionary Force arriving 12 September 1914 in France. On or about the 21 October 1914 he was blown up and buried for 4 hours before being recovered and taken ultimately to the Ypres clearing hospital Milton Hill? sector. He was as a result discharged from the forces as unfit March 1915. Can anyone help me identify where he might have been when injured, or point me to where I may find the information that I seek. My own suspicions at present are around the battle of Langemarck 21-24 October 1914 but I have been unable to confirm Milton Hill sector location.
ss002d6252 Posted 4 January , 2022 Posted 4 January , 2022 He was a special reservist rather than a regular soldier. Special reservists attested for a 6 year period at a time for which they did approximately 6 months of full-time training (with refresher training) and then were released to remain at home as reservists until called up. Craig
ss002d6252 Posted 4 January , 2022 Posted 4 January , 2022 There is a medical record on Find My Past which I suspect is him - recorded as 888 Howarth rather than 883 Howarth He was admitted to #3 Casualty Clearing Station on 28 October 1914 and noted as 'deaf and dumb' - exactly what would you would expect from the shock of being blown up and buried - and then transferred 'to Base' the same day. The service record shows he was in France until 1 Nov 1914, presumably undergoing treatment, having been admitted to a clearing hospital on 21 Oct. It looks like he was in the clearing hospital from 21st - 28th, then transferred to a hospital at Boulogne (via 3 CCS) and then back to England on 1 Nov 1914, where he was sent to Milton Hall Hospital - https://www.qaranc.co.uk/Milton-Hill-Sectional-General-Hospital-No-3-Southern-Command-Steventon-Berkshire.php Craig
Alan Howarth Posted 4 January , 2022 Author Posted 4 January , 2022 Craig Thank you very much for the information regarding grandads status as a reservist, obvious when I look now at his papers, just didn't put two and two together. The information regarding #3 CCS I can confirm is my grandad as he was in fact discharged for those reasons. He ultimately recovered both speech and hearing sometime after 1919. Thanks again Alan
ss002d6252 Posted 4 January , 2022 Posted 4 January , 2022 His pension is interesting, He was discharged with a 25s per week pension for 12 months at a 100% disability rate and then, over time, reduced down to 19s 3d (70% rate) and them 5s 6d per week (20% rate). At some point, this probably dropped below the minimum 20% disability level and ceased. Craig
Alan Howarth Posted 4 January , 2022 Author Posted 4 January , 2022 Craig At least it helped to get him back on his feet, thanks again for you help Alan
ss002d6252 Posted 4 January , 2022 Posted 4 January , 2022 11 minutes ago, Alan Howarth said: Craig At least it helped to get him back on his feet, thanks again for you help Alan Yes. He seems to be one who needed a bit of time to recover for pension purposes (although I expect you would never fully recover). Craig
Tom Lang Posted 4 January , 2022 Posted 4 January , 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Alan Howarth said: I have my grandfathers Attestation papers which had survived intact. My grandfather Harold was a regular soldier mobilised on the 8 August 1914 to the British Expeditionary Force arriving 12 September 1914 in France. On or about the 21 October 1914 he was blown up and buried for 4 hours before being recovered and taken ultimately to the Ypres clearing hospital Milton Hill? sector. He was as a result discharged from the forces as unfit March 1915. Can anyone help me identify where he might have been when injured, or point me to where I may find the information that I seek. My own suspicions at present are around the battle of Langemarck 21-24 October 1914 but I have been unable to confirm Milton Hill sector location. Hello Alan and Welcome to the GWF. His Service Record (page 3) shows that he was posted to the 1st Battalion BW on 12/9/14. Page 12 describes the Cause of his deafness and dumbness as being caused by a shell explosion at Ypres on 21st Oct 1914. Unfortunately The Battalion War Diary for October is "defecient". Kindest Regards, Tom. Edited 4 January , 2022 by Tom Lang typo
Alan Howarth Posted 4 January , 2022 Author Posted 4 January , 2022 Tom Thank you very much for your response, the first two points are welcome confirmation and the war diary information a new fact for me. Had hoped I might be able to track it down for more information of the location of the incident, but obviously not now relevant. Perhaps I will find evidence of the Black Watch's location on the line at the time of the explosion in other documents of the time. Many thanks Alan
Derek Black Posted 5 January , 2022 Posted 5 January , 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Tom Lang said: Hello Alan and Welcome to the GWF. His Service Record (page 3) shows that he was posted to the 1st Battalion BW on 12/9/14. Page 12 describes the Cause of his deafness and dumbness as being caused by a shell explosion at Ypres on 21st Oct 1914. Unfortunately The Battalion War Diary for October is "defecient". Kindest Regards, Tom. 11 hours ago, Alan Howarth said: Tom Thank you very much for your response, the first two points are welcome confirmation and the war diary information a new fact for me. Had hoped I might be able to track it down for more information of the location of the incident, but obviously not now relevant. Perhaps I will find evidence of the Black Watch's location on the line at the time of the explosion in other documents of the time. Many thanks Alan 1st Bn Black Watch war Diary Sept/October, 1914 (put together post war and published in 1921) Sept. 28th Battalion in line CHIVY VALLEY. The Battalion remained in this position till 15th October. Lt. Bowes-Lyon wounded 6th October. Oct. 15th 1st Division relieved by the French. Battalion marched via BOURG to BLANZY. 17th Battalion marched to FISMES and entrained for HAZEBROUCK. 18th Battalion arrived HAZEBROUCK and rested in comfort for 48 hours. 20th Battalion marched to POPERINGHE and piqueted the roads ½ Mile N. 21st Battalion marched Via ELVERDINGHE and BOESINGHE to PILKEM in reserve. 22nd The Camerons and Coldstream Guards were heavily attacked. A., B. and C. Coys. were ordered forward about 13.00 towards KORTAKER CABARET, near BIXCHOOTE. At 18.00 the three companies and some French Cyclists reached the bank of the STEENBEEK. 23rd At midnight touch was regained with that part of Coldstream Guards which had not been driven back. 2 I.B. also moved up on L. The enemy made fierce attacks all night and continued them throughout the day. 24th Battalion relieved by the French Territorials and marched back via ST JEAN and outskirts of YPRES past ZILLEBEKE to VERBRANDEN MOLEN (afterwards called Hill 60). Casualties 22nd - 24th.2 Officers (Capt. Urquhart and Lt. Bowes-Lyon) were killed; 5 (Major Hore-Ruthven, 2nd Lts. Hay, Kirk, Thistle and MacRae wounded) O.R. - 20 killed, 40 wounded, and 3 missing. Cheers, Derek Edited 5 January , 2022 by Derek Black
Alan Howarth Posted 5 January , 2022 Author Posted 5 January , 2022 2 hours ago, Derek Black said: 1st Bn Black Watch war Diary Sept/October, 1914 (put together post war and published in 1921) Sept. 28th Battalion in line CHIVY VALLEY. The Battalion remained in this position till 15th October. Lt. Bowes-Lyon wounded 6th October. Oct. 15th 1st Division relieved by the French. Battalion marched via BOURG to BLANZY. 17th Battalion marched to FISMES and entrained for HAZEBROUCK. 18th Battalion arrived HAZEBROUCK and rested in comfort for 48 hours. 20th Battalion marched to POPERINGHE and piqueted the roads ½ Mile N. 21st Battalion marched Via ELVERDINGHE and BOESINGHE to PILKEM in reserve. 22nd The Camerons and Coldstream Guards were heavily attacked. A., B. and C. Coys. were ordered forward about 13.00 towards KORTAKER CABARET, near BIXCHOOTE. At 18.00 the three companies and some French Cyclists reached the bank of the STEENBEEK. 23rd At midnight touch was regained with that part of Coldstream Guards which had not been driven back. 2 I.B. also moved up on L. The enemy made fierce attacks all night and continued them throughout the day. 24th Battalion relieved by the French Territorials and marched back via ST JEAN and outskirts of YPRES past ZILLEBEKE to VERBRANDEN MOLEN (afterwards called Hill 60). Casualties 22nd - 24th.2 Officers (Capt. Urquhart and Lt. Bowes-Lyon) were killed; 5 (Major Hore-Ruthven, 2nd Lts. Hay, Kirk, Thistle and MacRae wounded) O.R. - 20 killed, 40 wounded, and 3 missing. Cheers, Derek Derek This is excellent thank you so much for this, off to study a map and see what I can work out. Interesting historical footnote but am I wrong to assume Lt Bowes-Lyon was the brother? Of the Queen mother to be. Wikipedia here I come. Thank you again Alan
Alan Howarth Posted 5 January , 2022 Author Posted 5 January , 2022 2 minutes ago, Alan Howarth said: Derek This is excellent thank you so much for this, off to study a map and see what I can work out. Interesting historical footnote but am I wrong to assume Lt Bowes-Lyon was the brother? Of the Queen mother to be. Wikipedia here I come. Thank you again Alan Derek, Just checked, this Lt Charles Bowes-Lyon was the son of a cousin of the Queen mother. The war was indeed a great leveller. Alan
Tom Lang Posted 5 January , 2022 Posted 5 January , 2022 10 hours ago, Derek Black said: 1st Bn Black Watch war Diary Sept/October, 1914 (put together post war and published in 1921) Sept. 28th Battalion in line CHIVY VALLEY. The Battalion remained in this position till 15th October. Lt. Bowes-Lyon wounded 6th October. Oct. 15th 1st Division relieved by the French. Battalion marched via BOURG to BLANZY. 17th Battalion marched to FISMES and entrained for HAZEBROUCK. 18th Battalion arrived HAZEBROUCK and rested in comfort for 48 hours. 20th Battalion marched to POPERINGHE and piqueted the roads ½ Mile N. 21st Battalion marched Via ELVERDINGHE and BOESINGHE to PILKEM in reserve. 22nd The Camerons and Coldstream Guards were heavily attacked. A., B. and C. Coys. were ordered forward about 13.00 towards KORTAKER CABARET, near BIXCHOOTE. At 18.00 the three companies and some French Cyclists reached the bank of the STEENBEEK. 23rd At midnight touch was regained with that part of Coldstream Guards which had not been driven back. 2 I.B. also moved up on L. The enemy made fierce attacks all night and continued them throughout the day. 24th Battalion relieved by the French Territorials and marched back via ST JEAN and outskirts of YPRES past ZILLEBEKE to VERBRANDEN MOLEN (afterwards called Hill 60). Casualties 22nd - 24th.2 Officers (Capt. Urquhart and Lt. Bowes-Lyon) were killed; 5 (Major Hore-Ruthven, 2nd Lts. Hay, Kirk, Thistle and MacRae wounded) O.R. - 20 killed, 40 wounded, and 3 missing. Cheers, Derek Hello again Derek, I knew that you'd come up with something more. Attached are copies of letters prepared by Lt. Col Rowen-Hamilton and Capt Campbell-Krook (mentioned on the first page of WD above). Tom.
Alan Howarth Posted 5 January , 2022 Author Posted 5 January , 2022 1 hour ago, Tom Lang said: Hello again Derek, I knew that you'd come up with something more. Attached are copies of letters prepared by Lt. Col Rowen-Hamilton and Capt Campbell-Krook (mentioned on the first page of WD above). Tom. Thank you very much for these, a lot to get my head round and map gazing to make sense of all the new information but so much closer now to understanding my grandfathers war. Alan
Tom Lang Posted 6 January , 2022 Posted 6 January , 2022 (edited) On 04/01/2022 at 23:06, Derek Black said: 1st Bn Black Watch war Diary Sept/October, 1914 (put together post war and published in 1921) Sept. 28th Battalion in line CHIVY VALLEY. The Battalion remained in this position till 15th October. Lt. Bowes-Lyon wounded 6th October. Oct. 15th 1st Division relieved by the French. Battalion marched via BOURG to BLANZY. 17th Battalion marched to FISMES and entrained for HAZEBROUCK. 18th Battalion arrived HAZEBROUCK and rested in comfort for 48 hours. 20th Battalion marched to POPERINGHE and piqueted the roads ½ Mile N. 21st Battalion marched Via ELVERDINGHE and BOESINGHE to PILKEM in reserve. 22nd The Camerons and Coldstream Guards were heavily attacked. A., B. and C. Coys. were ordered forward about 13.00 towards KORTAKER CABARET, near BIXCHOOTE. At 18.00 the three companies and some French Cyclists reached the bank of the STEENBEEK. 23rd At midnight touch was regained with that part of Coldstream Guards which had not been driven back. 2 I.B. also moved up on L. The enemy made fierce attacks all night and continued them throughout the day. 24th Battalion relieved by the French Territorials and marched back via ST JEAN and outskirts of YPRES past ZILLEBEKE to VERBRANDEN MOLEN (afterwards called Hill 60). Casualties 22nd - 24th.2 Officers (Capt. Urquhart and Lt. Bowes-Lyon) were killed; 5 (Major Hore-Ruthven, 2nd Lts. Hay, Kirk, Thistle and MacRae wounded) O.R. - 20 killed, 40 wounded, and 3 missing. Cheers, Derek Derek, On the 1st page of the WD where it shows that "Records Perth have no copy" there is a reference to "See 13/C/70". Do you know if that is a local Regimental records reference? If so, can you enlighten me (us) with your expertise. Tom. Edited 6 January , 2022 by Tom Lang
Derek Black Posted 7 January , 2022 Posted 7 January , 2022 Tom, I've no idea what that's referencing i'm afraid. The November diary for the Brigade was lost by shellfire hitting the H.Q., I've never read anywhere what the reason for the loss of the Black Watch October diary was. Although a former Black Watch museum archivist said it was dropped in a puddle.... Cheers, Derek.
Tom Lang Posted 7 January , 2022 Posted 7 January , 2022 (edited) On 07/01/2022 at 05:30, Derek Black said: Tom, I've no idea what that's referencing i'm afraid. The November diary for the Brigade was lost by shellfire hitting the H.Q., I've never read anywhere what the reason for the loss of the Black Watch October diary was. Although a former Black Watch museum archivist said it was dropped in a puddle.... Cheers, Derek. Thanks Derek. I wonder if the puddle was in France or Perth Records Office - both are well-known for puddles. (Couldn't resist). Tom. Edited 9 January , 2022 by Tom Lang
Alan Howarth Posted 7 January , 2022 Author Posted 7 January , 2022 At least it wasn't the old favourite " a big boy took it an ran awa"
ss002d6252 Posted 7 January , 2022 Posted 7 January , 2022 I have often wondered what the real story behind missing diaries is. "A big German shell took it, just after the Lt finished writing it" really means "no-one could be bothered, so we didn't" Craig
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